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I just saw the Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives category in review and thought the idea was clever at first, but then had some reservations and I ended up voting no. Here's my thoughts and questions: 

Wouldn't a lot of these places already be accepted in an existing category?

Is this specific TV show too limited in scope? How long has it been on the air, how many episodes or locations have they been to?

How about changing the category slightly to all Restaurants Featured on TV Food Shows. This would be much more global, not restricting to only 1 show, or 1 network even. This would then apply to a wide variety of locations around the world. Then you'll get places visited by Anthony Bourdain, Mario Batali, Alton Brown, Emeril, etc. As well as food shows in Asia, Europe, Middle East, etc.

I would be thrilled to seek out food locations to waymark and to visit while on vacation if the category was broader.  Anyone have different or similar thoughts on this?

Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't read too deep, and the name made me vote yes. I didn't realize it had a food show associated with it.

My idea to create the Diners, Drive-ins and Dives came from visiting one of the featured restaurants. I met a couple there at the restaurant with the serie's book (made entailing the restaurants in the first three seasons). Talking to the couple I found out they were traveling cross-country and trying all of the featured restaurants on the travel route, with some requiring minor detours.This couple was basically visiting waymarks and just documenting their comments in their book. As I am sure many people do this to one degree or another, I thought creating this category would give them a good forum. Also, people could learn about these featured restaurants

 Diners, Drive-in, and Dives is an ever expanding group. The television show is in its sixth season and it features a minimum of three new restaurants each episode. I believe currently there have been 60 total episodes. so 180+ current waymarks with more to come.

The restaurants used in the show are from recommenations of television viewers
 As for your question, 'Is this specific TV show too limited in scope',there are several waymarking categories that are very  specific.Many which easily fit within other categories. Examples- Holy Wells of the British Isles,  Benchmarks on Las Vegas Boulevard,  300 Years of Russian Navy, 1866 Austro-Prussian War Waymarkers, Rhode Island Reds, and 100's more.

 As for expanding the type of restaurant categories, all Mc Donald's, Wendy's, Burger Kings, In-N-Out Burgers, and White Castle restaurants should be in one category. Not to mention Australian Mc Donald's with wi-fi spots.

 I hope I made some valid arguments in your opinion and this will get you to change your vote!
 

b.b.wolf:

 Diners, Drive-in, and Dives is an ever expanding group. The television show is in its sixth season and it features a minimum of three new restaurants each episode. I believe currently there have been 60 total episodes. so 180+ current waymarks with more to come.

The restaurants used in the show are from recommenations of television viewers
 As for your question, 'Is this specific TV show too limited in scope',there are several waymarking categories that are very  specific.Many which easily fit within other categories. Examples- Holy Wells of the British Isles,  Benchmarks on Las Vegas Boulevard,  300 Years of Russian Navy, 1866 Austro-Prussian War Waymarkers, Rhode Island Reds, and 100's more.

 As for expanding the type of restaurant categories, all Mc Donald's, Wendy's, Burger Kings, In-N-Out Burgers, and White Castle restaurants should be in one category. Not to mention Australian Mc Donald's with wi-fi spots.

 I hope I made some valid arguments in your opinion and this will get you to change your vote!
 

Many of the ones you listed are not categories and are only groups... some have been declined and some never submitted, these include Benchmarks on Las Vegas Blvd, 300 years of Russian Navy (didn't even find that group), Austrailian McDonald with wifi.     And some of the groups you mentioned expanded their categories  to be more global before their category was accepted, including Holy Well is expanded to include holy wells anywhere in the world.  Austro-Prussian War actually has monuments in several European countries.  Do  you know how many hundreds of historical markers there are in Rhode Island... we don't either, but every state has a historical marker category why not Rhode Island.

As for you thinking all the fast food chains should have been in one category... that is not how the game evolved.

Problem I have is there is a category for Diners... thus every single waymark that would be accepted in your proposed category can already be listed in that category.

Do not look at any other category as setting precedence  for a future category.  As the game evolves what may have been acceptable before may not be now.

Thanks for taking the time to pop in and post about the category and thank you for the time involved in proposing a category.

Due to the redundancy and limited scope issues it may be a no go, but if it was rewritten a bit with  a few links and examples it would have a better chance at passing.

As it is now I fear it will be a disappointment for you.

Actually there are two categories and maybe more where this could be redundant.

The Diners cat.  and the Movie Locations cat which accepts TV Shoot locations. 

That said it is an intriguing idea and may be workable but don't be surprised if it doesn't fly especially as it is written now.

You at least need a link to the locations database. I found two sources. Here and Here.

A link to the official show site would be a nice addition as well.  and maybe a quote from the Wikepedia article about the star and the show itself would be helpful for those of us who do not frequent the Food Network. I had never heard of this show before. Show just how square I am probably. 

I do like that you included some variables including the episode the location was featured in.

All of these items may help it pass but even then it is debatable if it has a chance given the other issues mentioned.

 

Most of the groups I mentioned are from the newest groups list. None were ficitious. I was not trying to pick on Rhode Island, it just shows a group restricted to a very small region.( Actually an area of 37 miles x 48 miles, almost a third which is water.)
As for the mention about the different burger franchises each having their own group because of evolution, each  of these groups are subcategories of "Hamburger". When a category gets large enough, it will naturally get subcategories. I am just trying to make a new subcategory of independent restaurants.
 The subcategory "independent diners" is dedicated to non-franchise diners featuring the best homemade food.  It does not include restaurants featuring new style cooking or specialty dishes. Also, the independent diners category  is regulated to sit down diners and cafes, no drive-ins or take out stands.
 Sometimes waymarks are cross-indexed. I have a waymark that is a "Geographical Center", A "Compass Rose", and a "US Benchmark".The item fits in three different categories. Should it be in only one group? Then again, people go hunting only specific types of waymarks, and may miss the item if it was not cross-referenced. 
 I believe that the group Diners, Drive-ins and Dives is properly placed in its subcategory. It is for independent restaurants, but not always independent diners.

I had supplied the group officers with the list of  the restaurants from the Food network link you submitted. This was for the verifcation of the restaurants. I was not sure if putting the links on the category webpage was too commercial, So I refrained from doing so.
 I would like comments from anyone whether the Food Network website link and their list of restaurants should be listed on the category page.

As for the mention of the Movie location category, last March I was visiting Duke University in Durham, NC. Many of the buildings and locations there on the two campuses are cross-indexed waymarks, for architecural styles, now and then photographs, as well as movie locations.

There are definitely categories that are narrowly defined or are very specific in nature. Some work great, and others flop. I think its a case by case basis. The Zippy the Pinhead category is similar to this one, but it could have easily been a category for "locations in comic strips". But then again there's aren't a ton of comic strips that feature roadside attractions.  I would probably support a category for locations featured on TV food shows. (And I think it would be an OK cross/subset of Movie Locations, since I don't think of Movie/TV locations the same way I do with food-joints.) I believe that an all inclusive category would catch a lot of wonderful restaurants, roadside stands, kiosks, etc that aren't already included in the current Commerce categories. I'm only against limiting it to "Guy Fieri's" opinions which would mainly be in the US, and not including many other Food TV shows throughout the world, and history for that matter. I don't remember if the Frugal Gourmet or Julia Child ever did a location shoot, but that would be cool to find a restaurant they went to during a show.

The Zippy cat has links to list of places as does U-Haul. They are "needed" for the category I think. I see no problem if the cat passes.

Fatcat

The Zippy the Pinhead cat is full of links and resources. I don't think I would have been able to get it approved them. Aso developing the idea in the forums was key to getting the thing off the ground. It was a bit off the wall for an idea and I faced the redundancy and limited location issues with the category as well even though there are approx. 1500 locations worldwide that can be listed.

I wonder if opening it up a bit to allow for other food related shows that feature specific locations might be worth investigating if the category as is doesn't make it.

Any of you waymarkers from outside the US know of shows that are similar in your countries?

b.b.wolf:

Most of the groups I mentioned are from the newest groups list. None were ficitious. I was not trying to pick on Rhode Island, it just shows a group restricted to a very small region.( Actually an area of 37 miles x 48 miles, almost a third which is water.)
As for the mention about the different burger franchises each having their own group because of evolution, each  of these groups are subcategories of "Hamburger". When a category gets large enough, it will naturally get subcategories. I am just trying to make a new subcategory of independent restaurants.
 The subcategory "independent diners" is dedicated to non-franchise diners featuring the best homemade food.  It does not include restaurants featuring new style cooking or specialty dishes. Also, the independent diners category  is regulated to sit down diners and cafes, no drive-ins or take out stands.
 Sometimes waymarks are cross-indexed. I have a waymark that is a "Geographical Center", A "Compass Rose", and a "US Benchmark".The item fits in three different categories. Should it be in only one group? Then again, people go hunting only specific types of waymarks, and may miss the item if it was not cross-referenced. 
 I believe that the group Diners, Drive-ins and Dives is properly placed in its subcategory. It is for independent restaurants, but not always independent diners.

I think you are misinterpreting groups to equal categories.... there are nearly 1400 groups and just over 900 categories...  Not all groups become categories and some groups created categories which are quite different from what group started for. 

You are also misunderstanding how the upper level type categories are created... actually the lower level categories are created first. When sufficient numbers of these categories are created which can be grouped together to a higher level category is created.  The Hamburger category was not created and then when it got to be big  broken up into the smaller categories, instead all the smaller categories were created and then the Hamburger directory listing was created to group the like categories together... you can not submit waymarks directly to Hamburger.

I have been known to crosslist a few waymarks  (often more than 5 waymarks for a single location)  and I am in favor of it however when a category can fit inside another category then I view it as a duplicate.

If the approach for your category was broader as suggested earlier in the thread including all "restaurants" featured on all tv food shows then it would have broader appeal.

b.b.wolf:

As for the mention about the different burger franchises each having their own group because of evolution, each  of these groups are subcategories of "Hamburger". When a category gets large enough, it will naturally get subcategories. I am just trying to make a new subcategory of independent restaurants.

 I believe that the group Diners, Drive-ins and Dives is properly placed in its subcategory. It is for independent restaurants, but not always independent diners.

I think you miss the point about sub-categories.   In reality there are only categories.  What you call "subcategories" are merely how they are organized for listing in the directory.  It is like putting objects in a drawer or files in a folder.

Any number of categories could be sliced and diced into multiple smaller categories.  Take one of our grandfather categories that we love to pick on - McDonald's.   It could be subdivided by geogra;phy, but this would fly in the face of the "global" criterion.  Categories may have a geographic limitation by their very nature, but they can't be aritificially limited.  They could be subdivided by service - McD's with play areas, those with wi-fi.   That would mean that each could be placed in the parent cateogy and in one of the more restrictive categories.  Instead, the variables are used to identify those with play areas and wi-fi.

So, what you're proposing is pulling out a small group from the Diners category to create a small, limited category.   The Diner category is written very broadly.  If there are any that wouldn't be included in it, or in one of the other restaurant categories such as BBQ/s or Best Hamburgers, it would be a very small number indeed.  This is the whole point of the "redundant" criterion.

BeanTeam has made some good suggestions on revamping this cateogory to be an even stronger one.  You'll find this forum an excellent place to post your ideas before sending them to peer review!

About restrictive categories or those with a small pool of potential waymarks --  So true that we have some, and some of them don't make any sense to me at all and probably should never have seen the light of day.  Others, though small, have other redeeming qualities.  That doesn't mean we have to follow bad precedents, or that we can't rethink the way we do categories.  I think there has been a lot of refinement in waymarking categories along the way.  BeanTeam, BQ, ChapterhouseInc, and others can give even more perspective on this.

And, I'll add my appreciation to the list, as your effort and passion are obvious.  We can work together to make this a category that is strong and still accomplishes the objectives you want.

Funny because I had started a Food Network Location category a few hours before this one was set up. The Diners, Drive-in and Dives just beat me to it.  As Far as Food Networks are concerned there are some shows that had oversea locations. I know that Rachael Ray's $40 a Day did.

I also don't think that everything posted in a Diners, Drive-in and Dives is covered by other categories. There are restaurants from the show that are categoryless.  I know that I've seen episodes for Cuban restaurants in Florida and French bistros in California.

TheBeanTeam:

The Zippy the Pinhead cat is full of links and resources. I don't think I would have been able to get it approved them. Aso developing the idea in the forums was key to getting the thing off the ground. It was a bit off the wall for an idea and I faced the redundancy and limited location issues with the category as well even though there are approx. 1500 locations worldwide that can be listed.

I wonder if opening it up a bit to allow for other food related shows that feature specific locations might be worth investigating if the category as is doesn't make it.

Any of you waymarkers from outside the US know of shows that are similar in your countries?

I think this was a good example of how to develop a difficult and different category.  I don't think a limited waymark pool is necessarily a problem.  As has been pointed out, we already have a bunch of them.  Take a look at the category list and see how many categories have fewer than 100 waymarks!!  The main issue, for me, in this one is redundancy.

I don't know of any similar program in Korea, but we don't have a TV, and my language isn't good enough to understand it anyway. 

But, the problem with expanding it to other shows is that you end up with things that are really too dissimilar, it seems to me.   Boston has the "Phantom Gourmet."  I don't know if it is on TV, but we listened to it on the radio, and there is a book or two, I think.  But, lumping them in with the Diners and Dives doesn't seem to make sense.  That program, which I really enjoy, has a specific focus.

Oh, I do have a waymark already listed in Diners and in Best Hamburgers that was featured in this show, so I guess one more cross listing would be okay! 

Reading the name, I found it really interesting. Yes, Diners is a cat, but the others  are some really amazing and cool drive-ins around that I wouldn't waymark in the diners cat. The dives I thought was interesting to. A dive , to me, is a place you like to go to, but you don't tell anyone about it. Thus it wouldn't fall into recommended establishments, becuase you wouldn't want to admit you go there.

I am not aware of televisions show in countries other than the USA that have a similar approach to featuring restaurants as Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives, but if notified of such, I am sure the officer panel would vote to extend  the group for such shows

If the category is open to all TV show food locations, How will you verify them? We had the "best hot dog" series on the local news last year. They should all be postable because of that. However, as an officer how could you verify them? They may or may not be mentioned on the TV web site. And I'm sure you don't watch ever local news program.

If it is broader, it should be limited to TV shows that are series (not just a special) and has a verifiable list either on the shows web site or an independant web site that maintains a list. So if someone post a site from a show that isn't in the current accepted list, the poster would need to include a link to the list in the private message area and the officers could then add that to the description of the category.

Fatcat

Even though I mentioned earlier (above) that perhaps a broader category might be a consideration I am gradually warming up to the category as is with some clarifications and additions which the creator of the cat has indicated a willingness to address.  B. B. Wolf's participation in the discussion has changed my mind about the category as has Sao Paulo's note regarding some of the locations which do not fall under the diner umbrella. Next, add  the fact that this particular show has a verifiable list  which makes it specifically waymarkable and I think we have a viable category.

That said a broader category may be something to still consider if verification could be figured out. . Here is a show in Canada that likely would work in a broader cat., but how to verify? I can't find a list of locations for it.  Great Canadian Food Show

Here is another "No Reservations" that has the host traveling the world and the location lists (from the Azores to Vietnam) give addresses to the venues he enjoyed in each country. It could easily be verified and open up the cat to worldwide waymarking.  Using Uruguay as an example there would be 5 locations waymarkable in 4 cities across the country.

silverquill:

TheBeanTeam:

The Zippy the Pinhead cat is full of links and resources......Snip

I think this was a good example of how to develop a difficult and different category. 

Why thank you for the kind words. It took a lot of time to put it together but for me it is the most enjoyable of the categories I have created....even if I don't agree with all of the politics of the comic strip  it is the only strip I know of that is waymarkable in this fashion.

silverquill:

Oh, I do have a waymark already listed in Diners and in Best Hamburgers that was featured in this show, so I guess one more cross listing would be okay! 

Perhaps the creator of the category could use a few of your photos for the category description page to dress up the page with real examples of locations featured.

TheBeanTeam:

That said a broader category may be something to still consider if verification could be figured out. . Here is a show in Canada that likely would work in a broader cat., but how to verify? I can't find a list of locations for it.  Great Canadian Food Show

Here is another "No Reservations" that has the host traveling the world and the location lists (from the Azores to Vietnam) give addresses to the venues he enjoyed in each country. It could easily be verified and open up the cat to worldwide waymarking.  Using Uruguay as an example there would be 5 locations waymarkable in 4 cities across the country.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about - I love the idea of waymarking Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives, I just think it should include more shows & locations.  I just did a wiki search for Feasting on Asphalt, and they have a very comprehensive list already with generic coords of the locations!  These types of shows are called Food Travelogue Television Series and this Wikipedia list includes shows worldwide. The Thirsty Traveler also lists the bars and pub destinations from their shows around the world.

These Food Travelogue shows highlight everything from diners, dives, bakeries, pubs, fish markets, spice shops, tea rooms, the coffee kiosk where the baristas wear bikinis, and hot dog carts. So some of these locations would be cross-posted in other categories, but a category of Food Travelogue locations would highlight the zany, the best of's, and catch other placess without categories.

fatcat161:

If the category is open to all TV show food locations, How will you verify them? We had the "best hot dog" series on the local news last year. They should all be postable because of that. However, as an officer how could you verify them? They may or may not be mentioned on the TV web site. And I'm sure you don't watch ever local news program.

If it is broader, it should be limited to TV shows that are series (not just a special) and has a verifiable list either on the shows web site or an independant web site that maintains a list. So if someone post a site from a show that isn't in the current accepted list, the poster would need to include a link to the list in the private message area and the officers could then add that to the description of the category.

Fatcat

I was meaning series of national broadcasting, not local programs or non-series. Diners, Drive-ins and
Dives has a verifiable list, and we would expect that of other series as well.

TheBeanTeam:

Even though I mentioned earlier (above) that perhaps a broader category might be a consideration I am gradually warming up to the category as is with some clarifications and additions which the creator of the cat has indicated a willingness to address.  B. B. Wolf's participation in the discussion has changed my mind about the category as has Sao Paulo's note regarding some of the locations which do not fall under the diner umbrella. Next, add  the fact that this particular show has a verifiable list  which makes it specifically waymarkable and I think we have a viable category.

That said a broader category may be something to still consider if verification could be figured out. . Here is a show in Canada that likely would work in a broader cat., but how to verify? I can't find a list of locations for it.  Great Canadian Food Show

Here is the episode list for the Great Canadian Food Show. It  has a verifiable list of restaurants, albeit you have to sort by episode first. I am sure the officers would find this to be an acceptable show to add to the group. There are probably several different countries with programs that can be added to the group.

Episode list

edited: BruceS removed excess html gibberish

sorry, I do not know how to remove the html gibberish from my last reply.lol

BruceS is awesome. Thank You

It might be cool to have a category that accepts the restaurants that are on Kitchen Nightmares (BBC & FOX). Just to stay up to speed on whether they kept the changes Gordon Ramsey made, if their food sucks again, etc etc etc. But I'm not sure Waymarking is the appropriate venue for that. That strikes me as more of a fandom website that doesn't need GPS coordinates.

How's about a general Reality TV Places category that focuses on the sites used in only Reality TV programs, from all these traveler cooking shows to renovation shows to Survivor locales...

Maaaybe?

Redneck Parrotheads:

How's about a general Reality TV Places category that focuses on the sites used in only Reality TV programs, from all these traveler cooking shows to renovation shows to Survivor locales...

Maaaybe?

I like that idea. I don't have cable, so I'm not up on all the show's. It's fun watching just the names of the shows in this post, so viewing the waymarks would be even more fun.