TheBeanTeam:

globetrotters.us:

chapterhouseinc:

we have a cache needs attention option, what about a category needs attention [category might need more/new officers] button?

I like that idea!

Me too.

Look at this category.

Literary Sites

It' officers has had one sign in in 2009...back in May. The leader last signed in just over a year ago.

I had a user contact me asking if I could help because he ran into the category support group. Alas there is no help that I could offer.

I am thinking that categories should be subject to ongoing peer review. Literary Sites, for one, needs an integrity check. The description clearly says it is for locations mentioned in literature ("Find something - a house, diner, bookstore, park, etc. - that's used in a fictional book"). It appears that the birthplace of an author is acceptable as well, though not mentioned as such.

i just visited several of scooterbill's posts to get that icon, so im cool with that...

Permanent Charity Donation Locations - been waiting ten days.  Leader finally logged in, but no review.  The other two officers have 0 and 1 waymarks, and haven't logged in for months.  Open enrollment is on, so maybe some rescue could be made.

hey, i got my icon there....thats not really one of my crossposting cats.....ill leave those at the thrift stores i post for me to visit later

Is anyone in West Virginia Historical Markers active? I have some I submitted three weeks ago that are still waiting to be approved.

Fatcat

i thought i saw a new one of those pop up not too long ago...has that been 3 weeks?

fatcat161:

Is anyone in West Virginia Historical Markers active? I have some I submitted three weeks ago that are still waiting to be approved.

Fatcat

chapterhouseinc:

i thought i saw a new one of those pop up not too long ago...has that been 3 weeks?

The most recent in the cat was exactly a month ago. Of the three officers, the last sign-ins were 7/27, 7/18 and (the Leader) 5/30.

 Participatory minimums, anyone?

I have 11 WV markers waiting to be approved going back to 8/2.

Fatcat

fatcat161:

I have 11 WV markers waiting to be approved going back to 8/2.

Fatcat

Dang! What categories???

i hope you didnt mark the same west virginia markers.....

artificial caves? note sent to every officer went ignored.....

at least someone from weird stories approved that one (though 1 officer was very rude, something about life problems. my thought was: why didnt you ignore it like all the others?)

FiVermont:

I am thinking that categories should be subject to ongoing peer review. Literary Sites, for one, needs an integrity check. The description clearly says it is for locations mentioned in literature ("Find something - a house, diner, bookstore, park, etc. - that's used in a fictional book"). It appears that the birthplace of an author is acceptable as well, though not mentioned as such.

 

I noticed this as well.

I really hope groundspeak is coming around to the fact that abandonned categories are a real problem for this hobby.

I think your suggestion for periodic peer review is a good one but what happends to all the waymarks and logs if a legacy category fails review?

rakeinthecache:

FiVermont:

I am thinking that categories should be subject to ongoing peer review. Literary Sites, for one, needs an integrity check. The description clearly says it is for locations mentioned in literature ("Find something - a house, diner, bookstore, park, etc. - that's used in a fictional book"). It appears that the birthplace of an author is acceptable as well, though not mentioned as such.

 

I noticed this as well.

I really hope groundspeak is coming around to the fact that abandonned categories are a real problem for this hobby.

I think your suggestion for periodic peer review is a good one but what happends to all the waymarks and logs if a legacy category fails review?

I hope you're not referring to the birthplace of Jack Kerouac, because he wrote about it. Many of his books were semi-autobiographical.

team farkle 7:

I hope you're not referring to the birthplace of Jack Kerouac, because he wrote about it. Many of his books were semi-autobiographical.

Kerouac was not my focus. You give a highly detailed description of how the house is mentioned in Dr. Sax.

However, I do seriously doubt James Fenimore Cooper mentioned his birthplace in Last of The Mohicans, as I doubt Stephen Crane's childhood home is mentioned in Red Badge of Courage.

My continuing peer review suggestion is specifically aimed at categories in which the managers appear to have lost interest to the extent that they are rubber-stamping postings (as the two above appear to have been). Categories in which all of the officers are somehow unavailable for review at the same time.

I have no idea how it would be handled, but continuing peer review, I think, should also look at how groups are structured and category requirements, and question whether categories have become personal fiefdoms. I have heard of officers who leave all reviews to the leader, doing absolutely nothing until someone complains. Leaders who refuse to listen to the opinions of their officers.

rakeinthecache:

...what happends to all the waymarks and logs if a legacy category fails review?

The same thing that typically happens now when category requirements change: grandfather the existing postings and visits, perhaps continue to permit visits, but close the category to more   waymarks unless it is actively maintained.

FiVermont:

My continuing peer review suggestion is specifically aimed at categories in which the managers appear to have lost interest to the extent that they are rubber-stamping postings (as the two above appear to have been). Categories in which all of the officers are somehow unavailable for review at the same time.

I have no idea how it would be handled, but continuing peer review, I think, should also look at how groups are structured and category requirements, and question whether categories have become personal fiefdoms. I have heard of officers who leave all reviews to the leader, doing absolutely nothing until someone complains. Leaders who refuse to listen to the opinions of their officers.

Well, while we all are concerned about abandoned or non-functioning categories, and I think it is way passed time for a solution (that we as users can't generate ourselves), it is quite a different thing to have someone reviewing all 900+ categories and trying to micromanage them.  Whose to say what a "personal fiefdom" is, or even if that is an evil to be expunged?  How is to decide if a leader isn't listening to opinions of his officers?  I think the answer to the latter is  -  the officers.  And, they can do what they will about it. 

Having every category going through periodic peer review does not seem to me to be a workable solution.  For one thing. I think the average number of votes in a peer review is only 60-70.  And, having some sort of oversight committee or group seems undesirable for a lot of reasons that should be obvious.

Taking external action on a category should be used for extreme cases only, as a last resort.  I do need that.  But, anything beyond that flies in the face of the free and open process upon which waymarking has been built, and would create more problems than it would solve.

That's what I'm thinking tonight, but I'm willing to hear more . . .

silverquill:

Taking external action on a category should be used for extreme cases only, as a last resort.  I do need that.  But, anything beyond that flies in the face of the free and open process upon which waymarking has been built, and would create more problems than it would solve.

On the whole, I agree with these sentiments.

I'd like to see two things:

First, an automatic, but kind of 'natural' way for abandoned categories to become available for others to step in and assume leadership once the category has been determined to have been abandoned. I'd like to see categories automatically put up for adoption after some period of inattention by the current officers. If people step in and adopt, the category is back in business. If no one adopts, the category is eventually closed down for future submissions.

Secondly, I'd like to see information about either the average review time for waymarks in each category (something like "the average review time for waymarks submitted to this category is 3 days"), or the date of the earliest un-reviewed waymark which has been submitted to the category (something like "the waymark which has currently been waiting the longest for review in this category was submitted 3 weeks and 4 days ago ...").

Ideally, this information would be displayed on the waymark submittal page for each category. That way, when you were about to go through the effort of creating a new waymark, you'd have a rough idea about what to expect in terms of review time.

cache_test_dummies:

silverquill:

Taking external action on a category should be used for extreme cases only, as a last resort.  I do need that.  But, anything beyond that flies in the face of the free and open process upon which waymarking has been built, and would create more problems than it would solve.

On the whole, I agree with these sentiments.

I'd like to see two things:

First, an automatic, but kind of 'natural' way for abandoned categories to become available for others to step in and assume leadership once the category has been determined to have been abandoned. I'd like to see categories automatically put up for adoption after some period of inattention by the current officers. If people step in and adopt, the category is back in business. If no one adopts, the category is eventually closed down for future submissions.

Secondly, I'd like to see information about either the average review time for waymarks in each category (something like "the average review time for waymarks submitted to this category is 3 days"), or the date of the earliest un-reviewed waymark which has been submitted to the category (something like "the waymark which has currently been waiting the longest for review in this category was submitted 3 weeks and 4 days ago ...").

Ideally, this information would be displayed on the waymark submittal page for each category. That way, when you were about to go through the effort of creating a new waymark, you'd have a rough idea about what to expect in terms of review time.

The first goal certainly addresses the issue, but a couple of questions have to be addressed.  Like, exactly what criteria will determine when a category has been abandoned?  For the process to be automatic, this has to be exact, inflexible, and universally applied.  It is a little like, "I know one when I see one," but trying to write a precise definition and a script to go with it is a bit more challenging.  So, the goal is good, but how to get there is complicated.

I almost think that this is where some sort of oversight group might be useful - a court of last resort.  Once a potentially abandoned category has been identified, then the group takes prescribed steps to determine its status, and if the results are negative, then the category goes up for adoption.  We might have orphan waymarks, but we should have no orphan categories.

The second goal,\ may also be hard to implement.  Sounds like a complicated piece of programming, but I'm a total lay person in that regard.  I'm not sure how useful it would be to me as a waymarker anyway.  I pretty much know which categories will have may waymarks approved within a day, and those that will be a week or more.  If it is a new category, I look at the date of the last waymark approved, and I look at the officer list to see when they last logged on.  That's not always the whole story as many officers log on but never, or seldom, review waymarks.  So, there are ways to get clues to a category's activity.

Good thoughts.

well, as long as certain things are taken into account:

popularity of category anyway: as in Video Game Arcades. not very many posts, but i dint let them sit there too long--since i know im the only one working the store there.....tht category still hasnt broke 50 marks yet has it?


some sort of noteification system like (a cache needs maintanance/archived) group need to take action, group needs new officers, group needs to be hung out.....
i approve of something similar to the group probation process.....once it has had no activity for a time (signing in doesnt count, you must vote/approve/deny something), put the red light on it....

silverquill:

The first goal certainly addresses the issue, but a couple of questions have to be addressed.  Like, exactly what criteria will determine when a category has been abandoned?  For the process to be automatic, this has to be exact, inflexible, and universally applied.  It is a little like, "I know one when I see one," but trying to write a precise definition and a script to go with it is a bit more challenging.  So, the goal is good, but how to get there is complicated.

I said that I'd like to see these things - I didn't claim that they were possible!

But I understand what you are saying.

I'd be comfortable with a 'Needs Attention' button (as was suggested earlier in this topic) on each category page, and having someone from Groundspeak make the call as to whether the category was 'abandoned' (assuming someone from Groundspeak would actually follow up). In fact, OpinioNate has already mentioned an informal way of handling at least part of this here).

The fact Groundspeak is uncomfortable with the idea of removing inactive leaders, while perhaps understandable at this point, is an issue that Groundspeak can resolve with a simple policy change: either they just go ahead and remove inactive leaders, or allow less than a 100% vote of officers to demote or remove a leader. Oh, and open enrollment needs to be turned on.

silverquill:

I almost think that this is where some sort of oversight group might be useful - a court of last resort.  Once a potentially abandoned category has been identified, then the group takes prescribed steps to determine its status, and if the results are negative, then the category goes up for adoption.  We might have orphan waymarks, but we should have no orphan categories.

That would work for me too. I'm surprised Groundspeak hasn't set up such an oversight group, drawn from the community by special invitation. They (Groundspeak) have plenty of experience successfully managing and making use of such volunteers (i.e. Geocaching reviewers) - perhaps what is currently lacking in Waymarking is a set of tools and guidelines that could be given to such a group to provide them with the means to administer broken categories.

silverquill:

The second goal,\ may also be hard to implement.  Sounds like a complicated piece of programming, but I'm a total lay person in that regard.

I actually suspect it would be quite easy to do.

silverquill:

I'm not sure how useful it would be to me as a waymarker anyway.  ... So, there are ways to get clues to a category's activity.

I know there are ways to figure this out - easy for the very active and experienced waymarkers among us.

But 'easy if you know how to do it' doesn't help those who aren't as experienced, or aren't as active. Here's a thought - add a 'How long will it take for my Waymark to be reviewed?' link on the category page. The link would simply display a list of suggestions (like those you mentioned - look at the date of last approval in that category, officer last logged on dates, ...).

Groundspeak is aware that there are some issues that have been introduced into the Group Management approach with regard to unresponsive officers.

This would be akin to geocaches that are no longer being maintained. And based on that, here is what I would assume is the stumbling block.

Ultimately the content within the category description is the intellectual property of the Leader. As such Grounsdpeak should be very hesitant to 'adopt' categories from one person to another without permission. When I consider that, I'm rather surprised that a Leader can be ejected so easily or at least without notification of the consequences for legal reasons.

There is no doubt that a new method to address inactive officers and leaders is needed. The site functions properly, but maybe the vote process needs a bit of an adjustment, so that categories can be saved or improved as needed.

BQ

the blue quasar:

This would be akin to geocaches that are no longer being maintained. And based on that, here is what I would assume is the stumbling block.

Ultimately the content within the category description is the intellectual property of the Leader. As such Grounsdpeak should be very hesitant to 'adopt' categories from one person to another without permission.

Waymarking,com is a listing service offered by Groundspeak. While it is true that the content within the category description is intellectual property of the Leader, the Leader has granted Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation.

In short, it seems to me that Groundspeak would be clearly within their legal rights to allow an existing category to be adopted by another Leader.

The analogy to Geocaching doesn't exactly fit - the bugaboo with adopting caches is that Groundspeak doesn't own the container. What is the same is that on both GC.com and WM.com sites, Groundspeak has control over the listings.

the blue quasar:

The site functions properly, but maybe the vote process needs a bit of an adjustment, so that categories can be saved or improved as needed.

What voting process are you referring to?

cache_test_dummies:

the blue quasar:

This would be akin to geocaches that are no longer being maintained. And based on that, here is what I would assume is the stumbling block.

Ultimately the content within the category description is the intellectual property of the Leader. As such Grounsdpeak should be very hesitant to 'adopt' categories from one person to another without permission.

Waymarking,com is a listing service offered by Groundspeak. While it is true that the content within the category description is intellectual property of the Leader, the Leader has granted Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free
license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify
and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or
lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose
and without restriction or obligation.

In short, it seems to me that Groundspeak would be clearly within their legal rights to allow an existing category to be adopted by another Leader.

The analogy to Geocaching doesn't exactly fit - the bugaboo with adopting caches is that Groundspeak doesn't own the container. What is the same is that on both GC.com and WM.com sites, Groundspeak has control over the listings.

Yes, but that does not mean that the author has given up ownership. It means that Groundspeak has rights as to what they can do with the content.

cache_test_dummies:

the blue quasar:

The site functions properly, but maybe the vote process needs a bit of an adjustment, so that categories can be saved or improved as needed.

What voting process are you referring to?

What I mean is that currently it takes 100% of ALL officers to vote out a Leader. I think it should be 66% of those that cast a vote. I'm the only active officer in one group and would like to make some enhancements. The leader (a dearly departed friend of mine) did not set-up permissions. The only way I can do anything is to vote them out. There are three officers in total: The leader, myself and one other non-participant. As it stands under the current system I do not believe I can assume control.

BQ

the blue quasar:

What I mean is that currently it takes 100% of ALL officers to vote out a Leader. I think it should be 66% of those that cast a vote. I'm the only active officer in one group and would like to make some enhancements. The leader (a dearly departed friend of mine) did not set-up permissions. The only way I can do anything is to vote them out. There are three officers in total: The leader, myself and one other non-participant. As it stands under the current system I do not believe I can assume control.

Not the first time I have heard of a group effectively being without a leader because that person is no longer active for whatever reason, and was the only one who could change anything.

There's no problem with requiring at least three officers, no problem with requiring a majority to vote someone out, yet full control of the category can be left in the hands of one person.

Require that more than one person have full permissions?

the blue quasar:

Yes, but that does not mean that the author has given up ownership. It means that Groundspeak has rights as to what they can do with the content.

Exactly. And the original Leader would still keep ownership of the intellectual property (pictures and text) of the original category description. I'm not suggesting anything otherwise.

But the adoption would allow the new Leader to take control of the listing.

the blue quasar:

cache_test_dummies:

the blue quasar:

The site functions properly, but maybe the vote process needs a bit of an adjustment, so that categories can be saved or improved as needed.

What voting process are you referring to?

What I mean is that currently it takes 100% of ALL officers to vote out a Leader. I think it should be 66% of those that cast a vote.

Oh, of course - that voting process.

I wasn't sure what you were referring to. I agree with you (I mentioned the same thing in one of my prior posts).

I guess I don't see a huge difference between a Groundspeak-initiated adoption, and a Groundspeak-initiated series of changes to the category settings (invite a prospective new leader, bump them to an officer, allow a less than 100% vote to demote the original leader). Either way, the result would be the same - we've got a new leader who has control over the listing, so the category can be brought back to the ranks of active.