Groundspeak Portal

Now recruiting for the Blockhouse Defenders group. I saw one at a cache on Whitbey Island over the weekend and thought this category was worthwhile. More information on blockhouses can be found on Wikipedia.

I am embarrased to say that I thought that blockhouses stored ice before seeing one. Families on Whitbey Island are proud of their blockhouses but they were never actually used for defense on the island.

There already is a 'Martello Towers' category - would that be redundant?    Both pretty much serve the same purpose, just by design they may differ?     Just a thought...

fishingwishing:

There already is a 'Martello Towers' category - would that be redundant? 

No. It wouldn't.

fishingwishing:

There already is a 'Martello Towers' category - would that be redundant?    Both pretty much serve the same purpose, just by design they may differ?     Just a thought...

Martello towers  seem to be a coastal defense against warships, where as blockhouses are land defenses.  To me a pillbox seems like it might fit both, if it has a big gun to direct at warships.

Would you want to include pillboxes?

s5280ft:

Would you want to include pillboxes?

The expectation would be to only mark them in this category if they are called blockhouses by some kind of plaque or local description. Just because they are primarily above ground it doesn't mean it is a blockhouse. Nor does it matter if the blockhouse is on the coast as long as it is called one.

s5280ft:

fishingwishing:

There already is a 'Martello Towers' category - would that be redundant?    Both pretty much serve the same purpose, just by design they may differ?     Just a thought...

Martello towers  seem to be a coastal defense against warships, where as blockhouses are land defenses.  To me a pillbox seems like it might fit both, if it has a big gun to direct at warships.

Would you want to include pillboxes?

Martello Towers are indeed only costal

I've joined up looks like another very interesting category

 

Sorry, and thanks for the clarification. 

jeremy:

The expectation would be to only mark them in this category if they are called blockhouses by some kind of plaque or local description. Just because they are primarily above ground it doesn't mean it is a blockhouse. Nor does it matter if the blockhouse is on the coast as long as it is called one.

I think you might want a better definition than if they are called by plaque or local description. 

I know of numbers of pillboxes in the UK (a fair few along the Kennet & Avon canal) and they are known as pillboxes, so would be therefore excluded.

However, I know of a few in Normandy.  I'm ashamed to say that although my French is not bad I have no idea what the locals call them!  Certainly not "blockhouses".  Then there are things that look a hell of a lot like blockhouses on Suomenlinna (island fort off Helsinki).  The Finnish word for them?  The Swedish? I have no idea I'm afraid. 

My point is that relying on the English term "blockhouse" is an obstacle to it being global.

It may be unrealistic to expect any Category to be able to support the various languages and dialects of the world.  English is the primary language of all Groundspeak sites and although there are Categories with non-English names, those typically are not global in design.

 

Jeremy has provided a link to Wikipedia, and I would suspect he would do the same in his write up.  Maybe he could add a few TAGS using alternate language for "Blockhouse" if he is able to determine them thus expanding the reach to other nationalities but even then it would be limited to the major tongues that most owner's manuals come in.  French, Spanish, German, Arabic, Chinese and Japanese.  Although something tells me that Jeremy may view which non North American countries have the largest activity of Waymarking participants and use those.   One doesn't often try to sell bikinis to Eskimos

 

BQ

the blue quasar:

It may be unrealistic to expect any Category to be able to support the various languages and dialects of the world.  English is the primary language of all Groundspeak sites and although there are Categories with non-English names, those typically are not global in design.

You misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting that Waymarking support other languages, My point here is that you shouldn't rely on local language as a definition of a category.  Language shouldn't enter into it at all.

You will end up with the situation where you can have IDENTICAL structures in different countries, but only those in areaswhere the term "blockhouse" is in common usage are allowable.

To reiterate (my italics) "if they are called blockhouses by some kind of plaque or local description. Just because they are primarily above ground it doesn't mean it is a blockhouse. Nor does it matter if the blockhouse is on the coast as long as it is called one."

Relying on what something is called, rather than supplying objective definition is what it is will prevent the category from being global.

You need a better definition that is independent of local language.

So, "a blockhouse is a military structure of such & such size, of such & such construction for such & such purpose" would be good.  On the other hand: "a blockhouse is something called a blockhouse" is not, imo good as a) it excludes all such structures outside of areas where English is the first language and b) invites the inclusion of non-military installations that happen to be called "blockhouses".

Oh, boy, do I have one heck of a good waymark for this category.  Dating back to 1764, the Fort Pitt Blockhouse is the oldest surviving structure west of the Allegheny mountains that was built by European settlers.  George Washington used this blockhouse.

Looking forward to this category.  Thank you too, Jeremy, for bringing back nice memories of touring Fort Worden with you in 2003.  It was during the hike up the hill to the blockhouses, or whatever they're called, that you shared with me your vision for what we now know as Waymarking.com.

Interesting that the Wikipedia article does include UK 'pillboxes' in the examples given.

Accepting them would make this a good cat for the UK but otherwise I don't think we have many like the other examples shown.

There are quite a few pillboxes left in the UK and they are often found in unexpected corners.  Some have been reclaimed for other uses, some are overgrown and ignored, some still stand in defiance.  Nearly all are above ground.

The common name 'pillbox' obviously comes from the shape but it sounds like they fulfilled much the same function of defending against infantry.  Be good to see them included.

I think bunkers should have their own category. They're definitely different enough.

I'll add that there are lots of places like Fort Warden here in Washington State that I'd love to add the bunkers into the different waymark category. Also as long as the alternate term relates to blockhouses (using Wikipedia as a guide) there's no issue with listing them. I don't mean a plaque to be a requirement but there should be some local naming convention for the structure that relates to a blockhouse.

I agree that bunkers and blockhouses COULD be separate categories. They are certainly unique in whether they are above or below ground.  Personally I lean toward including them in one category of defensive fortifications, but I could see it going either way.  The qualifying factor for blockhouses would be that they are above ground defensive fortifications (although from some of the bunker pictures in Wikipedia, it would be hard to tell the difference of above or below ground).  I think the next question is size.  How big can a blockhouse get before it is called a fort?

how about any defensive fortifications?  do they still have to be there?  many are long gone and some are reconstructions. 

I like the idea of a more generalized "defensive fortifications" category.  I know that there are some ancient fortresses that have been rejected by the fort category, which seems more focused on North American type army forts.  These fortresses in Europe and Asia are magnificent places that deserve to be waymarked.

Even just pillboxes and batteries would be cool to waymark, though.  I know that I waymarked a very cool old battery on the Puget Sound and other than the American Guide category there wasn't a place for it.

I ran across my first blockhouse while in Kansas at the Geodetic Center Event.

The other name for these is Lunette.

I got the info from the Historian at Historical Ft. Scott, Kansas.

So I have one ready to add to the list.

I see there are already a ton of takers for this.  This is an excellent category for Europe.  These things are all over the place. Looking forward to waymarking these...

So is there someone willing to take it on?  I'd be willing to help write up the category if it will be the more general "defensive fortifications" category, but don't want to lead.

Jeremy has started the group.

http://www.waymarking.com/groups/details.aspx?f=1&guid=df208af6-1917-4ed1-8155-e13330f49d7d

Looks like the usual bunch of suspects have been rounded up.

Here's an interesting find.  A disused railroad bridge with a pillbox defense.  What an interesting piece of history.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3GNP