Groundspeak Portal

Bicycle Tenders.  OK, I know .. you told us so, we get it! :p

The fact is, when the Tender category was created and the language set so loose, that was to allow people more freedom to select and defend their waymarks.  We never EVER expected so many people to just take the stats, post, and not offer any interesting information.  We thought people would take pride in being creative and finding the obscure ... while at the same time avoid the mundane and boring.

Boy were we wrong!

So now we are coming to you all, the tried and true waymarkers who understand that things don't always work out as intended, to ask for your advice. 

Is it too late to go in and redefine the description so that we have justification to refuse some of the submissions?  We know what we want to say, we just don't know if its ethical to change the category dramatically after it's been voted on and accepted.  And IF we can make the changes, do we just grandfather in those waymarks already subimtted or do we edit them out?

We all acknowledge that many of you warned us that the description was too vague, and we humbly admit you were right!  So now, please, help us make the the category we always intended it to be.

Thanks.

 

Linky to the expanded category description

In my view it is not too late to change the description as long as it remains focused on the content.

While I am sure that you do appreciate that people were interested in your category and wanted to add content, I do see looking from some accepted examples how there are some mundane entries. It would appear then that you have two issues. One being a more clear definition of what you are looking for and the other being educating your officers about what is and isn't to be accepted.

Definitely grandfather what has been accepted. Deleting them only enrages people especially when they were acceptable according to definitions. Be sure to add the gradfathered date into the new description with some note as well.

"Standard form-factor bike racks are not the style that we are willing to accept any further." might help as a general statement.

BQ

Those of us that have been around a while have each had categories where they didn't go in the direction we had hoped and had to modify the category description.  I would follow the advice offered BQ.    If it is going to take a couple days to work out the new description I would suspend temporarily accepting any new waymark and post a notice in category description saying you are not accepting any new waymarks until new description is completed and that the new criteria will be used for accepting all new waymarks submitted.

We've posted a standard bike rack.  I guess I always viewed this category differently.  One of our posts is a 'standard' bike rack behind a nature center in Cleveland Metroparks.  Our page is written to show the things you can see (nature center, Rocky River, a beautiful park) when you have the opportunity to use this bike rack.

We did the same with our waymark for Oil Creek State Park.  The bike tender is at the start of a very nice bike trail.  We tried to write both these waymarks with an eye to the understanding that the 'ordinary' bike tender was a part of a wonderful experience.

Is it possible to re-write the page with a requirement of images showing the tender in its environment?  I've really had fun with the two ordinary ones we've posted (as well as the extraordinary).  I'd hate to lose the opportunity to post a plain bike tender that could bring a visitor to a pleasant experience.

I would maybe focus on "art pieces", forged by hand, or one-of-a kind bike tenders. I know I submitted a McDonald's bike tender because I was surprised to see it was in the famous Arches design. I had never seen this type before (but I haven't really looked either) but if every McD's had this particular tender, then there'd be hundreds and it becomes mundane.  Sometimes its hard to know if something is mass produced when you are visiting a new city, or what is unique in one town can be bought at a big box store in another-----like the Mailboxes category.

As said before, another big part is educating the officers.  I think keeping the integrity of the category is not only inportant for the officer's sanity, but it will help with the entire Waymarking-concept image.

miatabug:

We've posted a standard bike rack.  I guess I always viewed this category differently.  One of our posts is a 'standard' bike rack behind a nature center in Cleveland Metroparks.  Our page is written to show the things you can see (nature center, Rocky River, a beautiful park) when you have the opportunity to use this bike rack.

We did the same with our waymark for Oil Creek State Park.  The bike tender is at the start of a very nice bike trail.  We tried to write both these waymarks with an eye to the understanding that the 'ordinary' bike tender was a part of a wonderful experience.

Is it possible to re-write the page with a requirement of images showing the tender in its environment?  I've really had fun with the two ordinary ones we've posted (as well as the extraordinary).  I'd hate to lose the opportunity to post a plain bike tender that could bring a visitor to a pleasant experience.

I would suggest that it's not the tender but the location of the tender that should be waymarked.

Please do save this category...there are some tenders out there of interst...kind of like artistic benches...let people know that you are suspending or at least putting to vote accepting new waymarks...and update the description.

Post an update to the forums if you are looking for advice a few selected waymarkers would likely provide direct edits or advice...send me (us) an note to look for volunteers.

KE

Didn't we just have a post from Waypointer about not making major alterations to an existing category?  I'm not sure what you have in mind, or what might be considered a drastic change, but you might keep that in mind.  Sure, there can be some holes to plug, clarifications given, even some expansions in some cases.  I think it may be more problematic to totally redirect the category by adopting new criteria that would have made more than half of the existing waymarks invalid if submitted under the new guidelines.  I certainly do sympathize with you, but I'm not so sure it can be done.  Give it a try, though.

Pahaska_1:

Bicycle Tenders.  OK, I know .. you told us so, we get it! :p

The fact is, when the Tender category was created and the language set so loose, that was to allow people more freedom to select and defend their waymarks.  We never EVER expected so many people to just take the stats, post, and not offer any interesting information.  We thought people would take pride in being creative and finding the obscure ... while at the same time avoid the mundane and boring.

Boy were we wrong!

So now we are coming to you all, the tried and true waymarkers who understand that things don't always work out as intended, to ask for your advice. 

Is it too late to go in and redefine the description so that we have justification to refuse some of the submissions?  We know what we want to say, we just don't know if its ethical to change the category dramatically after it's been voted on and accepted.  And IF we can make the changes, do we just grandfather in those waymarks already subimtted or do we edit them out?

We all acknowledge that many of you warned us that the description was too vague, and we humbly admit you were right!  So now, please, help us make the the category we always intended it to be.

Thanks.

 

Waymaster had written a post very recently saying that categories should not change dramatically from how they were accepted in Peer Review.

However, we do have acceptable precedence, like Ginormous Objects, where "Ginormous" needed a bit more definition. I've found many things that are Ginormous, that even say "Ginormous" on them, and would have fit into the category's original slack definitions, but do not fit into the category's "lived-and-learned" accurate redefinition.

I firmly agree with BQ and BruceS. I also do not consider narrowing which bicycle tenders to be a dramatic change since the purpose is still bicycle tenders. The changes that your group is now implementing are changes that were strongly recommended in Peer Review, which is not only considered acceptable but is encouraged.

I don't have a lot of suggestions, other than to maybe open it to artistic bicycle tenders and/or bicycle tenders that have dedication plaques. I think it's great that you're trying to get a handle on the category and improve it. Good luck to you!

For the record, it's one of my favorite categories because of the unique ones that are posted.  I never would have thought bike racks could be interesting.  I'm quite proud of mine.  But yes, it probably should be shored up somewhat.  I always did think bike racks alone were too numerous.

OK, a few thoughts on this one:

1) Like silverquill pointed out, be careful about major alterations.

2) I find the idea of a bicycle tender category very useful. I cannot find these searching google. I cannot find these opening up a yellow book. Although many exist, that doesn't mean every place of business/public area has one. Knowing where even the plain ones are is very useful to a bicyclist, especially if they are in an area that they aren't familiar with.

3) Based on #2, I would recommend (although I'm sure many would disagree) that instead of re-working that category, create a new category for unique ones.

rmikelyons:

OK, a few thoughts on this one: 1) Like silverquill pointed out, be careful about major alterations. 2) I find the idea of a bicycle tender category very useful. I cannot find these searching google. I cannot find these opening up a yellow book. Although many exist, that doesn't mean every place of business/public area has one. Knowing where even the plain ones are is very useful to a bicyclist, especially if they are in an area that they aren't familiar with. 3) Based on #2, I would recommend (although I'm sure many would disagree) that instead of re-working that category, create a new category for unique ones.

Then you have a redundancy problem since all unique bike tenders can be found in the current category.

Redneck Parrotheads:

rmikelyons:

OK, a few thoughts on this one: 1) Like silverquill pointed out, be careful about major alterations. 2) I find the idea of a bicycle tender category very useful. I cannot find these searching google. I cannot find these opening up a yellow book. Although many exist, that doesn't mean every place of business/public area has one. Knowing where even the plain ones are is very useful to a bicyclist, especially if they are in an area that they aren't familiar with. 3) Based on #2, I would recommend (although I'm sure many would disagree) that instead of re-working that category, create a new category for unique ones.

Then you have a redundancy problem since all unique bike tenders can be found in the current category.

Correct. I don't think it would ever pass. I think that tightening up the cat is the way to go.

I'm not thrilled with the thought of drastically tightening an existing category unless there are some very specific ways to do that.  There's a big difference with bringing a category back to its original direction (blue plaques) and completely re-defining a category.

There are many cats out there with repetition (not all of them are commercial).  Tightening this category makes it a subjective category.  Who decides what is unusual?  Who decides what should/should not be posted?  When you draw the line without specifics, you upset players ("Why was this accepted and mine wasn't?").  If you reduce the cat down to "unique" designs, do you allow just one of a given design?  Doesn't this begin to open the question of too few possible submissions to make this a valid category.  It seems that this level of change is creating a category that was not put forward for peer review.

miatabug:

I'm not thrilled with the thought of drastically tightening an existing category unless there are some very specific ways to do that.  There's a big difference with bringing a category back to its original direction (blue plaques) and completely re-defining a category.

There are many cats out there with repetition (not all of them are commercial).  Tightening this category makes it a subjective category.  Who decides what is unusual?  Who decides what should/should not be posted?  When you draw the line without specifics, you upset players ("Why was this accepted and mine wasn't?").  If you reduce the cat down to "unique" designs, do you allow just one of a given design?  Doesn't this begin to open the question of too few possible submissions to make this a valid category.  It seems that this level of change is creating a category that was not put forward for peer review.

That is a good point. And we did accept the original by more than a 2/3rd majority.

Do we really want to go down the road of saying one kind of bike rack is okay and another is not? Let's not make this into the equivalent of the whole "micro in a lamp skirt" debate.

We are all quite capable of looking at the individual waymark and deciding if it is worth stopping for a visit. That would seem to be universal.

BQ

Thanks all for your input and valuable suggestions.  After discussion among the Bicycle Tenders (Officers) we will be adding the following to our category (thanks for the great wording, Pahaska_1)

NOTE NEW REQUIREMENTS (1/23/09):   (1) two photographs, one of the bicycle tender and one of the bicycle tender in situ (showing the 'environment' that gives this bicycle tender special significance).  If the tender is - in itself - a piece of art, the in situ photograph requirement will be waived.  (2)  If this bicycle tender is 'traditional', your description must include a reason why it should be considered - something to the effect of:   "Visitors to this Waymark will want to make note of the Denver Art Museum, just 50 yards away."  or "This Waymark is at the beginning of a trailhead perfect for the family that loves to hike together." 

I think we all agree that the original intent was to showcase those unique, artistic tenders, however we did and still maintain that any bicycle tender can be waymarked here.   We are only asking that if your tender does not have that stand-alone WOW factor, it be located (and photographed and documented as such) somewhere that does.  When submitting 'traditional' bicycle tenders, please take the time and make the effort to prepare a quality Waymark.   In return, we as Officers will try to be more diligent in our review and approval of future submissions to assure this remains a quality category.   And.....  we're always open to constructive criticism (and positive reinforcement of course:-). 

Thanks again for all your comments and the many wonderful Waymarks that we've received.   As stated in the opening paragraph of our original description......  "Only you can help keep this the quality category it was intended to be - Please practice Selective Waymarking!"