Groundspeak Portal

Yes, I'm upset and calling the category out.

Why?  I had waymark one published not once but twice followed by a decline 9 hours later.  Yes, 3 separate reviews of the same waymark.

Lets start with the name and short description:
Funny Mailboxs - Find a funny mailbox (not a pole) and take a good picture.

Ok, sounds easy enough.  I've done that great, lets move on to the expanded description:

http://img.groundspeak.com/user/8006dd1c-a734-4303-9dba-d6beed2574b9.jpg" border="0" />[img]http://img.groundspeak.com/user/8006dd1c-a734-4303-9dba-d6beed2574b9.jpg[/img]
They're out there. They may be in the shape of an automobile, a tractor, or an animal. Plastic (or vinyl) mailboxes that resemble barns that you can buy at Kmart will not be accepted. Please see the example photos of what we're looking for. They can be residential or for a business. Let's see what unique and interesting mailboxes are out there.

Uh-oh... I see the first issue.  The examples; none of them are funny.  I might give them unique but then again, a quick googling of "Hot Rod mailboxes" come up with a number of places that sell mailboxes that look a lot like the hot rod (as well as the big rig) posted.  I will give them, the train is unique but again, not funny.

The category description goes on to say no plastic (or vinyl) mailboxes that look like barns that you could buy at Kmart.  That's fine.  They are neither unique nor funny.  (Again, this is FUNNY mailboxes, not UNIQUE but I digress).  Oh wait, the last sentence in the expanded description changed it from funny to unique and interesting mailboxes.

The description does not say that mailboxes can not be store bought (unless they are barns).

Now lets move on to their stellar publication record of late:
Horse and Jockey Mailbox: is the run of the mill mailbox.  I see nothing unique or interesting.  When I was in England, I must have seen hundreds of them.

Airplain propeller: Here we have an airplane propeller sitting behind a mailbox.  Its not even attached to the mailbox but rather than pole (and we don't care about the pole in this category).

Parking Meter: Again, this would be great for the pole category but fails this category yet it was published.  I don't get it.

Brick Fantasy: It surprises me that this was published.  a) it's the pole that is brick b) neither the pole nor box are interesting or funny.

bill and liz barn mailbox:  To me, this is 100% what the category is against.  It appears to be a vinyl mailbox in the form of a barn, probably bought at KMart.

I could keep going but why should I.  Everyone sees the point.  The description is poorly written and confusing.  The management doesn't seem to know what to publish and what they shouldn't.  And Checkmark/Groundspeak should really step in and re-evaluate what is going on here.
To give due diligence and explain why I am annoyed, I posted a corn on the cob mailbox.  In 30+ years, I have never seen it before either in the field or in a store but it was declined.  At least one other one has been published.  Then the one that was published 2x and then declined was this Pelican.  Again, I'd never seen it before either in the field or the store.  Both of these waymarks meet the criteria given by the category and should be published.  If the category wants to redefine itself so as to be easier to read and more specific on what they do and don't accept, that is fine, but it should be after things like mine (which meet the current guidelines) are published.

Since we're not all about bashing here, the first suggestion I will give is a re-name of the category, maybe something like "Creative Home-Made Mailboxes".

I'm feeling somthing like deja vu all over again....

globetrotters.us:

I'm feeling somthing like deja vu all over again....

ditto

I guess if you wanted to summarize this into a generic problem I would say:

There is no way to apply oversight to categories already in existence.

At a minimum, there should be a way to "strongly suggest" things to a category. Perhaps a comittee that had the power to send things with a different email subject line. The wording could be generic without any wording that would make a specific category feel called out. Somthing like "as a part of an annual review of all waymarking categories to standardize and improve the categories, the review comittee has made the following suggestions concerning your category".

Even the suggestions could be somewhat generic, like for things that could be considered too subjective "Words like unique and unusual in the category description are perceived as subjective, and interpreted differently by different people. When limiting a category to only certain examples of the waymark, please include examples of both acceptable and unacceptable." . Categories that are approving outside their bounds (mailbox example) might say something like "Within a category, it is important that all approvers apply the same standards to approvals. It is sometimes helpful to give your approval group guidlines and ways to identify mass produced mailboxes. " .

As a group, we could come up with a list of the types of problems we see, come oup with a common verbiage for them, then each take a few rows to review, and look at everything.

You guys can say that, but ODragon is dead on accurate in his assessment if you ask me.  That category has long since been plaqued with problems, and not just because it was created before Peer Review when we understood the value of certain words.

Absent officers, (for well over a year only one was logging in and only when directly emailed) and poorly administered and vague at best.  The sample images of what was acceptable clearly are not...

Now there are some new officers.. and I had joined at one time and was ignored, I wanted to fix it.  Now is the time to boot that Leader and take control of it. 

To be puny, it's just not "Funny" anymore.

 

BQ

yes, but i have found coups are very hard to complete with many absent officers. often, if editing is available, we will change words and phrases as need be. but when someone is AWOL with the keys, you get stuck in having to explain everythime the issue arises.

my 2 cents: i have had many great specimines for this category because it was 'just the pole' or 'not the mailbox itself'.....come on, this is the 'mailbox category' do we really need one for 'funny mailbox posts' [yes, i agree that they are hardly laughable]. dont forget about the plastic manatees (there is one posted here in pinellas county, florida).

 

but this also brings up another category that i will call out: odd shaped buildings. in this area there are a few 'twistee treats' in which ice cream/hot dogs are sold from a giant ice cream cone shaped building. i tried to post the closest to me, but was told that only one of those buildings was going to be accepted, and it was in texas. how was i supposed to know this in florida? i have since seen several others in the region, but they only get placed in the ice cream category.

I don't have time to read the post or respond to this page by ODragon but will  only give an update after receiving his e-mail link about this Category.

Summary:
 -- The Category was dead in the water (more or less) with only 1Officer doing all the work and not having any 'Privileges"
Having volunteered to help, as many others have, I was drafted.
----- On Jan. 15th  Neuromancer2K4 promoted    yramMC600   and  me.
------ After some discussions and a couple of previous failed  votes we managed to demote 3 Officers with the Leader still in place.
---- The demotion of  "CAG"?  is now in progress as there was no response to repeated e-mails to him and other Officers. 
----- Almost all of  the  300+ Waymarks  that had been  approved   were checked for compliance and a number of notices sent out and some reversals have taken place. (I personally added   links for  comparison  to show that these were actually commercially available)
-----The Category will be rewritten, photos posted and an ongoing list of commercial mailboxes will be added as soon as they are being identified. (Hopefully anyone perusing this Category and spotting any Commercial ones will notify us)
-- Funny Mailboxes is really a misnomer so the name will probably stay as Waymarking P.T.B. really frown on Category name changes.
--  This Category has taken some abuse and more time than I am willing to admit but I am willing to soldier on until it is up and running properly at which time I will probably bow out, as I usually do after a while, and let others carry on.
--- Until then we will do what we  can  until "Neuromancer" is promoted  and with your understanding and suggestions it will be a better Category.
That is my promise.
               

Good Job!

It's also good that you documented the process, so that it can be repeatable.

Jake39:

with your understanding and suggestions it will be a better Category.
That is my promise.
               

And, for that we give you our thanks, Karl!

Yes, this is one of those "legacy categories" that we might call a "beta version," that didn't turn out well with many flaws, as pointed out in this thread and by others.  Then, perhaps understandably, the leadership lost interest.

The problem is that Groundspeak never set up any procedure for dealing with these issues.  And, although there has been intense discussion recently about what to do about distressed categories and absent leaders and officers, we've seen no response from Groundspeak.  While I applaud the work on a new search engine, a much need upgrade that we are all looking forward to, I almost see this as a higher priority because it is causing so much distress down here in the trenches.  My choice for the next Town Meeting topic.

It seems to me that whatever you do, this category will remain somewhat subjective, and that's okay.  Although I often make a plea for objective criteria, I also recognize that it is often an unobtainable goal.  We do have other cats that are pretty subjective.  (Another beta category, Unique Weathervanes, comes to mind).  The goal is to describe as clearly as possible what the subjective criteria are so that the grey zone shinks.  Then use common sense in applying them.

In regard to changing the category name  -  not impossible.  There were a number of name changes made recently in part of the reorganization of the Departments.  I had two changed.  One was a change I had requested a long time ago for an adopted category:  Abbeys changed to Abbeys, Convents and Monasteries.  The other change was made without my knowledge:  Theater - the Live Stage became Live Stage Theaters.  No big deal, though I prefer the former.  So, I'd at least request a name change if you feel it is appropriate after the revisions.

Thanks again for your hard work!  I think it sets an example for what can be done.  Let's just hope Groundspeak can just make it easier for those of us who want to do this kind of rescue work.

Bravo for your rescueing efforts, Jake39 and yramMC600!!

I googled for a "funny" definition and got:

amusing: arousing or provoking laughter

curious: beyond or deviating from the usual or expected;

fishy: not as expected;

funny story: an account of an amusing incident (usually with a punch line);

experiencing odd bodily sensations;

So "Funny" may not be such a misnomer. The mailboxes don't make me giggle, but they ought to qualify as "deviating from the usual or expected", right?

I still don't like the idea that people are being punished for following what little guidance the group gave; losing waymarks that were valid, having valid waymarks denied, etc.  It seems unfair to those of us who did the best we could with what was given.  I understand changing it for the future as well as getting rid of some of those that obviously didn't meet the criteria in the first place but things should be published based on the current 'guidelines'.

ODragon:

I still don't like the idea that people are being punished for following what little guidance the group gave; losing waymarks that were valid, having valid waymarks denied, etc.  It seems unfair to those of us who did the best we could with what was given.  I understand changing it for the future as well as getting rid of some of those that obviously didn't meet the criteria in the first place but things should be published based on the current 'guidelines'.

I don't have a problem with it. They're just waymarks of mailboxes.

ODragon:

I still don't like the idea that people are being punished for following what little guidance the group gave; losing waymarks that were valid, having valid waymarks denied, etc.  It seems unfair to those of us who did the best we could with what was given.  I understand changing it for the future as well as getting rid of some of those that obviously didn't meet the criteria in the first place but things should be published based on the current 'guidelines'.

I'm sure the decision to go against the tradition of grandfathering was a difficult one, and a lot of thought must have went into it.

I can usually see the pros and cons of just about anything, and this one would fall so close to the middle for me I'd have a tough time.

ODragon:

I still don't like the idea that people are being punished for following what little guidance the group gave; losing waymarks that were valid, having valid waymarks denied, etc.  It seems unfair to those of us who did the best we could with what was given.  I understand changing it for the future as well as getting rid of some of those that obviously didn't meet the criteria in the first place but things should be published based on the current 'guidelines'.

 - - I am not about to engage in a tete à tete with you in the Forum but your complaint does deserve an answer.
1.You submitted "A Corn mailbox" and the 2 of us denied it within a minute of each other. You knew why as it was  explained to you in the  rejection, but you re-submitted it again a few days later!
2. The "Pelican mailbox" was approved by me but our Leader said it was a mistake as it was a commercial one so we also gave you the reason why the mistake had to be corrected. ..... and you re-submitted it again  being fully aware why it was refused .... 
They were  received and rejected in proper order although not as it should have been.
The subject is "Pau"

Jake39:

- - I am not about to engage in a tete à tete with you in the Forum but your complaint does deserve an answer.
1.You submitted "A Corn mailbox" and the 2 of us denied it within a minute of each other. You knew why as it was  explained to you in the  rejection, but you re-submitted it again a few days later!
2. The "Pelican mailbox" was approved by me but our Leader said it was a mistake as it was a commercial one so we also gave you the reason why the mistake had to be corrected. ..... and you re-submitted it again  being fully aware why it was refused .... 
They were  received and rejected in proper order although not as it should have been.
The subject is "Pau"

Here is your latest denial

Sorry this is now unique mailbox.

Please reread the guidelines:

* Plastic (or vinyl) mailboxes that resemble barns that you can buy at Kmart will not be accepted.

* And also please do not submit any Wide Mouth Bass, Fishing Lure, or Red Barn mailboxes. They are not unique and there are plenty of them out there.

I've read the guidelines and that is why I keep submitting them. 

*Neither of these resemble barns that you can buy at Kmart (or anywhere else for that matter).  Neither of them resemble barns at all.

*Neither of these are Wide Mouth Bass, Fishing Lure, or Red Barn mailboxes.  You're correct, there are many of these out there and I've seen lots of them.

I find both the Pelican and Corn to be unique.  I've never seen them before (31 years in cars driving around keeping my mind out for oddities like this) so to me they are unique.  There are the kinds of things you notice.

While it wouldn't be in the best interest to see massive overhauls of existing and previously accepted categories and descriptions Groundspeak can work with you to address and correct items that would improve a category.  A few months back "Abbeys" was updated to be be more inclusive at the request of the leader because it was the right decision to make.

"Funny Mailboxes" may not have been the right name all along if the intention was for something else.  The first step would be to get the managing group fixed up and then set to work determining the original intent of the category.  Preserve as much as possible while correcting any wordings that are misleading.  If the intention all along was for a collection of homemade mailboxes that relates to a hobby or occupation and you can create a basic name to reflect that then email me and we'll see what we can do.

Leave your mark upon the world.

Checkmark
checkmarkmail@gmail.com
Waymarking.com admin team

 

ODragon:

I find both the Pelican and Corn to be unique.  I've never seen them before (31 years in cars driving around keeping my mind out for oddities like this) so to me they are unique.  There are the kinds of things you notice.

Just take a look at these two waymarks and pictures:

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3PTX

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM5T2K

 

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/597f2a50-a3d7-461a-86ff-62ab9347755f.JPG

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/23c3c2a2-06cd-4e1b-a69a-a5fe459fcc27.jpg

So as you can see, this mailbox is not unique.

Same is to the corn mailbox you've submitted. But the previous waymarks are that old that groundspeak deleted the images/waymark already so I cant show you.

Neuromancer2k4:

ODragon:

I find both the Pelican and Corn to be unique.  I've never seen them before (31 years in cars driving around keeping my mind out for oddities like this) so to me they are unique.  There are the kinds of things you notice.

Just take a look at these two waymarks and pictures:

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3PTX

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM5T2K

 

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/597f2a50-a3d7-461a-86ff-62ab9347755f.JPG

http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/23c3c2a2-06cd-4e1b-a69a-a5fe459fcc27.jpg

So as you can see, this mailbox is not unique.

Same is to the corn mailbox you've submitted. But the previous waymarks are that old that groundspeak deleted the images/waymark already so I cant show you.

Sorry to stir any more on this particular issue, but as a new officer to the group, I had not realized that there could only be one pelican mailbox. I happened to see Odragon's and thought it was unique and very funny as well. So I asked him to switch the default image to the tighter of the two shots and resubmitt. I then put it to avote so that all the officers would be able to judge it. I was not aware of the one in Santa Cruz being accepted. http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM59GT 

So, Odragon's resubmission is totally my fault.

I did however, after learning of this thread, just notice that the one in Santa Cruz was posted seven months after the one in Ponte Verda http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3PTX so if there's only going to be one, shouldn't it be the first one posted? 

I also noticed that though these three mailboxes are pelicans they do differ enough that it is clear to see they are handmade and not mass produced. The two that were declined have a similar outline but the paint looks like it was applied by two different people with two totally different styles and adeptness in their brushstrokes. Also the pelican in Ocean Grove has a yellow section above its eyes. They also have two different types of flags. The one in Ponte Verda has the traditional square flag and the one in Ocean Grove has one that is somewhat triangular or tapered. These three though they may be all pelicans, as far as I'm concerned are different and each has it's own uniqueness.

If we're to limit the category to only one pelican, then we have to also limit to only one big rig, etc. There are several Fire trucks, Mail trucks, heck all sorts of trucks, bunch of trains & a caboose or two, many planes, several cats, dogs and fish and a whole bunch of stuff, each unique in their own way. Aren't we supposed to try to be inclusive? I really don't see why these two pelican are being declined. As Redneck Parrothead says, they're just waymarks, but then again, well of course they are. What else would they be?

If I'm totally off base here please let me know.

Main Entry: unique

My pelican mailbox was submitted in September 2005.  I'm not certain if it was the first, but it was much earlier than any in this discussion.

I'll weigh in my two cents.  There is little doubt that I am not a fan of subjective categories.  Beauty, humor, quality etc are all in the eye of the beholder.  Categories that judge on subjective tastes do two things that do not help this game.  Those are: they make for hard feelings and ill will among established players, and they have a very high potential for turning away potential players who are just getting into the game.

No one likes having a submission rejected.  Pages take time to prepare and few, if any of us, have extra time for creating waymark pages that don't get posted.  If I get one rejected because I missed something, I am disappointed, but either fix it so it's published or archive it and move on.  I have, however, had a few submissions that were tossed for purely subjective reasons (I've even had a category owner add more subjective rules to the category page as our discussion went on).  It leaves a bad taste and usually I go find something else to do for a few weeks.

This category has a problem with the uniqueness requirement.  It is a burden for the waymarker to search the existing waymarks to see if their's is "unique".  It also has a problem, as team farkle 7 has pointed out in that often the officers are not able to search adequately to determine the "uniqueness" of a waymark.  Situations like this are perfect for creating hard feelings, dissatisfaction, and a loss of Groundspeak customers.  This game needs to be inclusionary to promote everyone enjoying it.  Does my pelican waymark in Ohio reduce one in California or eastern PA, or Florida to mundane?  Is it worth the angst and ill-will to deny the waymark?  I don't think so, but that is just my two cents.

Hi

Not to get too far off discussion, but

I think the Corn mail box is one of the coolest thing I have seen in a LONG time!

I also like the pole, it adds to it's uniqueness!!

I also have had a pelican mailbox approved

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM4NZA

Thank you

 

Thanks everyone for your posts.  I hope that more of the category members read this and think about it.  I hope the category management as a whole can come together and give a much better understanding on what it wanted in this category.  One person's unique is another common.  What I find interesting, someone else might not.  It doesn't mean either of us are wrong. 

A category, ANY category should be written so it is pretty obvious what is wanted.  Sadly, this one is not, so much so that even the groups own members don't completely understand what is good and what is not.