Groundspeak Portal

Like many others, I'm an officer in a bunch of categories. And after reviewing, accepting, denying, and voting on many, many waymarks over the last few years, I've come to the conclusion that category management (while having its rewards) is hard work.

I hereby decide that I've earned the right to gripe about it.

My personal list of category management gripes, in no particular order, include:

• Having to review waymarks created and submitted with obviously only the smallest amount of effort, or submittals which are obvious attempts to force-fit a waymark into a cross-listed category, or waymark submittals that are loaded with typos, glaring grammar mistakes and broken links, or not in conformance with the stated requirements.
• Inactive officers who never participate and won't respond to emails
• Emails from angry or frustrated waymarkers whose waymarks were denied (even when denied politely and for legitimate reasons)
• Lack of tools that would allow officers to efficiently discuss category requirements or individual waymarks (private forums for officers in each category would be a very cool thing!)

All this effort, and not even official recognition in the form of a nice little set of medals on the stat page for category management activities!

I really shouldn't complain - I'm fortunate that many of the categories I participate in have some truly outstanding and very active officers. Perhaps those officers should gripe about me.

Ok, I feel better now. Thanks for listening. Gotta get back to the review queue.

By the way I must mention how much respect and admiration I have for those super-involved category managers (like silverquill) who both manage their own categories and regularly manage huge numbers of waymarks in other categories. My own individual efforts don't even put me in the same league as category managers like that.

Hear Hear.

Great quick assessment of category management.

I can't imagine having to deal with people like me. A newby, strong geocaching background, stubborn, arguing for days over a silly little mark, takin' crappy pics, trying to get one last one submitted before bedtime. If its such hard work then maybe you should back out of some catagories. I'm not saying quit doing what you're doing but try to reduce the work load. I appreciate the work you guys do and if GS ever starts paying you then I might try to give you more grief. I want to come right out and say it now. SilverQuill is a big pain in the butt!!! But he's earned my respect as to what a reviewer should be. I could complain all day long about my declines but after all is said and done the WM looks better and will always be the best it can be from the start. He gives advice and actually responds and works with you within reason. I've only known him for a few weeks and I'm sure we'll bump heads again but when the smoke clears there will be better quality WMs where there was an attempt at another so so WM. I am left with 2 choices. Archive all my waymarks and leave Wmin' or quit being a little whine *** and try to create better quailty Wms from the start. I guess I'll stick around for a while and SilverQuill, Thanx for putting up with me. I still like this little mark though. Swizzle~~~~~~

cache_test_dummies:

Emails from angry or frustrated waymarkers whose waymarks were denied (even when denied politely and for legitimate reasons)

I've developed a technique for denying waymarks that has minimized the emails. If its something that can be fixed.

1) I tell them that I liked their waymark, and that it will make a great contribution to the category.

2) I tell them exactly what requirement is missing, usually with a cut and paste.

3) I give a suggestion for how to fix it

4) I tell them I am looking forward to their resubmit, and promise to approve promptly if they fix it.

5) I sign my name

If it can't be fixed

1) I tell them that I liked their waymark.

2) I tell them it's unfixable, usually with a cut and paste from the requirements.

3) I make a suggestion on where it might go

4) I sign my name

This is a time consuming process. I've spent as long denying a waymark as it sometimes take to create the waymark.

Every now and again, I kick off a denial for the first thing I see, then on the resubmit I see somthing else. I am trying to be more thorough and catch everything the first time through.

My pet peeve is approvers that won't deny and send things to a group vote. If your going to make the call, make the call. I hate getting votes when it should have been obvious to the person sending it to a vote, and they don't have the "guts" to give an honest denial. There is nothing wrong with a denial if you can be objective and constructive with your feedback. It's the wishy washy people that are afraid to deny that make it hard for the rest of us. Once you've had an inconsistent denial, it's hard to separate the feeling from the fact.

 

yes, yes,
get it out....

though reducing officer posts might not remedy the problem....

there are forums for each category (see the right hand side of each waymark and category) under discuss this category/waymark -> find related topics, post new forum topic.

they appear in the groundspeak portal (http://portal.groundspeak.com/forums/default.aspx) or scroll to the top of this page and click on it. USPS is the only category with a discussion.

i too butt heads with some of the names here sometimes....
sometimes i have a good point, sometimes they do.....in the end it makes waymarks better not worse.

I think my biggest problem is the inconsistance with the reviewing process. Its tough when I put out a dozen Historic Markers with one minor problem and then finding the one thing that just begs to be WMed. I submit that big old beautiful WM only to have a reviewer telling me that a geocache has no place in a WM listing?!? Why not? Its another GPS game and since they are already there at this WM why can't the added bonus of a cache be added? I've mention a geocache in several different catagories and in this one it was frowned upon. With geocaching its always, "too close to the RXR tracks" or "your to close to another cache". Here its "I don't like your words" or add your personal feelings to a log. I want my WMs visited to reflect how many WMs I've seen not how many times I can visit my own listings. I see nothing wrong with adding a personal touch to some of the WMs. One WM was a hobby headstone. The guy loves cars. At the bottom of my paragraph I told about a friend of mine who had the same exact car and use to tear it apart and put it back together for fun. I got the big ol' DECLINED and was told to remove the part about my friend?!? I was lucky enough to have a guy like SilverQuill give me some advice and he's had plenty of declines and almost as many archives as I have listing right now. I don't want to see lost time and effort but I know it will come. What I would really like to see is a personal message along with each waymark even if its nothing more then a thank you. If a reviewer can give me a sentence or 2 that would help me improve the ones that are already approved then maybe it would be easier to develop better WM's from the start. I feel like I'm in the crash course stage right now and I don't want to bump heads with any of you guys but some of you could be a little more helpful to a newby. Maybe the next bunch of WMs he/she sends to you will be easier to approve. I think another problem I'm having is such an abundance of things to WM right now. My area is basically a blank slate right now so I'm trying to WM some of the best things in my town and the surrounding areas. As far as you reviewers go, you can keep your job reviewing. Its got to be hard work and takes a special breed to want to put up with the extra b****in' and not getting paid to do it. My hats off to all of you reviewers who put up with me and any other WMers like me and still come back with advice and are willing to work with us. Thank You All, Swizzle

gt.us:

I've developed a technique for denying waymarks that has minimized the emails. If its something that can be fixed.

1) I tell them that I liked their waymark, and that it will make a great contribution to the category.

2) I tell them exactly what requirement is missing, usually with a cut and paste.

3) I give a suggestion for how to fix it

4) I tell them I am looking forward to their resubmit, and promise to approve promptly if they fix it.

5) I sign my name

Amazing this is exactly how I do it.

I will try to do the same with an It can not be fixed waymark in the future.

gt.us:

I've developed a technique for denying waymarks that has minimized the emails. If its something that can be fixed.

I use a quite similar technique (I don't always tell them that I like their submittal, but I always thank them for submitting it), and to be honest, I don't see these frustrated or angry emails very often. In the vast majority of cases, when I suggest fixes, people will either make the correction and resubmit, or there is no further follow-up from the submitter, positive or negative.

In a few cases that I can think of, when the suggestions have included submitting a required photograph that was missing, I've received an email complaining about the requirement, with no follow-up resubmittal. My situation in this regard might be a bit unusual, because I'm an officer in two categories that currently carry the dreaded 'photo of yourself or your GPS' requirement.

swizzle:

 My area is basically a blank slate right now so I'm trying to WM some of the best things in my town and the surrounding areas.

I am still waiting for my first Swizzle Waymark to decline. 

 

swizzle:

My hats off to all of you reviewers who put up with me and any other WMers like me and still come back with advice and are willing to work with us. Thank You All, Swizzle

I am involved in many groups and the effort is not really that much for most of my groups. Here is why. Almost all of the groups are things I am genuinely interested in so I find it a joy seeing the items that are posted. If the listing is lacking I often add links and additional information that I think may make the WM better to my approval. Sometimes the poster appreciates it and uses it and others they just copy and paste for the next listing forgetting that I even approved it.

I can say I am a now in a tough reviewer phase because I have seen to many requests for additional information go unaddressed when I have approved a listing being a nice guy


So.... this isn't a category that I am involved with but this 1889 train crash might be one that could be waymarked in Railway Disaster Sites if it is near enough to you. HOGS KILLED IN A COLLISION

The Saratoga County fair has a caboose display that would fit in one of my cats. Give me a chance to decline that one if you would please. Is that close to you? Oh and the Tribes Hill freight and passenger depots built by FJ&G still stand. Be sure to add some history if it is available or I will deny those in a moment.

How about  a  Zippy the Pinhead location. Check out the list for New York.  A few on the list have been waymarked recently so I need to update the ones that are still available. Any submission that I  would have the chance to deny in this category would be much appreciated. Oh and I personally invite you out to Oregon for the opportunity to have an Oregon Historical Marker denied. 

Bottom line is I want things listed in my categories. I approve some I like and some I don't. give me one to deny and I promise I'll be nice and work with you to make it better.

chapterhouseinc:

there are forums for each category (see the right hand side of each waymark and category)

I am aware of these forums. The problem is that they are not private to the officers of any particular category. The type of discussions with fellow officers I'm talking about should be private.

cache_test_dummies:

chapterhouseinc:

there are forums for each category (see the right hand side of each waymark and category)

I am aware of these forums. The problem is that they are not private to the officers of any particular category. The type of discussions with fellow officers I'm talking about should be private.

and they do not work properly at this time. They used to link back to the category and that is turned off and they are buried so that they only show up if you use the unread posts feature of the forum.

They are almost private because no one sees them unless they stumble on them making them almost useless.

swizzle:

I've mention a geocache in several different catagories and in this one it was frowned upon.

swizzle:

Here its "I don't like your words" or add your personal feelings to a log.

I don't believe I've rejected any of your waymarks yet (or if I did, it wasn't because you mentioned a geocache or added personal feelings to the category description). But I do understand how other category managers might respond differently to the personal stuff in the waymark descriptions (and the tildes ). I prefer that such things go in visit logs and not in the waymark description (I personally believe waymark descriptions should only include factual, relevant details pertaining to the waymark itself, or related history, or the surrounding area, without personal information of any kind), but to date, I don't think I've denied a waymark because such details were included.

But I reserve the right to change my way of thinking about this in the future, or if asked to by a category leader.

swizzle:

What I would really like to see is a personal message along with each waymark even if its nothing more then a thank you.

Me too, and I try to do this every time I approve a waymark.

swizzle:

If a reviewer can give me a sentence or 2 that would help me improve the ones that are already approved then maybe it would be easier to develop better WM's from the start. I feel like I'm in the crash course stage right now and I don't want to bump heads with any of you guys but some of you could be a little more helpful to a newby.

Thanks, swizzle - this is good to know - and I'm glad you are open to suggestions about ways to improve your waymarks. I'm not sure everyone is as open-minded as you in this regard.

TheBeanTeam:

I am still waiting for my first Swizzle Waymark to decline. 

The Utica train wreck is a bit far but I may make it out there in the next few months. There was also a Broadalbin Train Wreck. I'm not sure exactly where but I'm working on it. I didn't know about the train depots in Tribes Hill. I'll look into that one. I found some other interesting local history out today that is close by. Old 1700's taverns, some still standing, some not. Do indian castles qualify for the castles catagory? There's a few of these around. The Shrine of Martyr's is only about a 15 minute drive. Right now I'm kinda stuck on the "where to start" stage. I have plenty for future declines I'm sure. I don't want to be to greedy so I'll share them with reviewers in a few dozen different catagories. Right now I'm just dusting off the rest of the declines and looking for my next target. I really don't mean to give any reviewer a hard time. A lot of times I type in anger and then later regret what I typed in. I think I may have went a little overboard with SilverQuill and I hope he doesn't take anything I say to heart. He means well and the quality of my waymarks that we've bumped heads on is better for it. Right now I'm thinking we bumped heads to hard. I'm getting a mygrane. Swizzle

i try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. a denial should be outright. yea, sometimes i miss details myself (the pic of the sign, a nice overall environment shot, a closeup of the clock) and expect others to do the same. i do tend to be more strict on the N00bs--they need to prove themselves first. dont we all agree on that? [some more than others]......
inconsistent reviewing process? how about inconsistnt officers within a group?

if i like it i say so, and provide valid resons why it was denied (or why your log needs a pic).....i remain nice until their comments cross the line. and i have been known to say some very nasty things--but mybe not to your face.

everyone has their own level of importance....i tend to go for historic plaques, NRHP, memorials, cemeteries, benchmarks and whatever else i happen to run into. i think of it as planting seeds.....i might mark the GHM/NRHP/AGS only to take a pic of the vistorian house across the street, hoping someone who comes to visit my marks will then post it so i can visit. it might seems like i max out an area sometimes, but theres always new categories/crossposts i didnt see/things i skipped on purpose......

i too feel that many waymarks have no place for personal opinion in the description....i dont include it , and dont deny you cause you did....

last month i had a non-specific memorial denied cause i didnt have any personal opinion about it. so, i moved that in the denied marks email folder to sit for an unknown time period. if i had an opinion that was fitting it would be included it. but it wasnt that great of a memorial--standard genericly wrded plaque on a pedistl with a flagpole.....if i was to insert an opinion for that, wouldnt it be in the visit log? i have how many posted already, and now they want to throw this you must have an opinion about it at me?

then, what about this 'make people want to visit it' stipulation? if i didnt want people to visit i wouldnt post it. sorry, im not looking at waldon pond here.

just the facts, ma'am

yes, but virtually private is just as good at this point isnt it? most of them (n00bs) dont even know the forum exists, do they? what then when you want to discuss another officer--for conspiracy to overthrow issues.....

what about all those plane crashes in NY? and arent a lot of them in the same place--just off the runway, in the river.....

swizzle:

I feel like I'm in the crash course stage right now and I don't want to bump heads with any of you guys but some of you could be a little more helpful to a newby.

I can't figure which part to quote, but here goes...About putting personal stories into a waymark, I look at it this way...

For a waymark to be of value to anyone outside our little group the wording should be in a third person, quasi-journalistic style. If a school child is doing research on a WWII sub (for example), and the waymark comes up in their Google search, for the waymark to give them value the "facts" must be presented clearly and succinctly. The thing that separates Waymaking from wikipedia is that we are presenting our waymarks as a personal contribution to the world. Many categories ask for your personal feelings. I don't have any problem with that, but I find it most benefical if the facts and the feelings are separated

I remember getting a waymark declined for putting a personal story into it. I don't remember the wording they used, but I remember the way it made me feel. I definately remember thinking I wasn't going to submit anything in that category again.

I'm going to go off on a tangent, so I'll do it in another post.

TheBeanTeam:

Amazing this is exactly how I do it.

I think I learned the most  from being rejected by the best! (Thats a plural, so as not to omit anyone)

chapterhouseinc:

.. how about inconsistnt officers within a group? if i like it i say so, and provide valid resons why it was denied (or why your log needs a pic (etc.)..

I think it would be worthwhile for category approvers to periodically look back on denials by other approvers in their category. This would open the door for discussions on how to improve processes or make things more consistent.

 

I wonder if someone couldn't develop icons for waymarking categories, like they have on geocaches. The geocache icons are winter friendly, pets allowed, etc. Waymarking could be Include your personal feeling, or with a slash, for don't include your personal feelings. Closeup required. Zoom Out required. Unusual requirements exist. GPS picture requires. with a slash No GPS picture.

I keep a mental list of some of these that have tripped me up, but with so many categories I find myself with a zoom out when I needed a zoom in every now and again.

 

swizzle:

I feel like I'm in the crash course stage right now and I don't want to bump heads with any of you guys but some of you could be a little more helpful to a newby.

Well, those of us in the Nom Nom Nom group love reviewing new Omnivorous Trees so I think you got more help than you even wanted from us! LOL

I don't mind the denial for personal feelings on something like a WWII memorial or a monument. What I don't like is the fact that if I think a monument is really awesome then why can't I say that its really awesome. I think its nice to let people know in the listing that I think its a really awesome statue or monument or a cool place to stop. Anything comemorating the dead is understandable. I'm not to sure I would like someone reading the WM for Gramma & Gramps headstone and saying WOW that is the coolest rock I've seen today. That could be viewed as somewhat disrespectful. Maybe I just need to pick and choose my feelings and tone them down a bit. If I think I found a really cool headstone then maybe I should translate it into something about how artisticly done or I guess try to be more "professional" about it. Are most of the memorial and headstone catagories touchy about the way things are worded? I'm trying man!! I'm learning and trying not to be so pigheaded about the way I set up a WM. I would like to have mine stick out a bit right from the start and it can't always be done with the wording in the title. That is part of my problem, wanting to stick out. I feel like I'm in a big whack a mole game and I'm the mole. The absentee officer thing drives me nuts too. One catagory that I'm waiting for an approval in the leader hasn't logged on since May?!? I sent him a message and nothing...And what's up with OpinoNate? He's logged on and off almost every day as well as 2 other officers in another catagory I'm waiting on. Still no review and its been about a week. I wouldn't even bother to mention it if it wasn't for the fact that he's been logging on and off all week. I know he's got a lot on his plate being a heavy hitter moderator over in the geocaching forums, but maybe he has too much on his plate. Is there a way to make the reviewing process faster and easier for you reviewers? I think the attributes listing that was mentioned above might be a nice way to quickly check off the requirements as they are met. Wow I type a lot of words without saying much don't I? Swizzle

Redneck Parrotheads:

swizzle:

I feel like I'm in the crash course stage right now and I don't want to bump heads with any of you guys but some of you could be a little more helpful to a newby.

Well, those of us in the Nom Nom Nom group love reviewing new Omnivorous Trees so I think you got more help than you even wanted from us! LOL

Whoa!! deja vue!! How do they say it? Love Me, Beat Me, Hate Me, Leave Me!! I'm still looking for more omniverous trees. I know of 3 but there's nothing special about them. 2 with a pipe and one with a trespassing sign. Swizzle

And to reply to the OP, A-freakin-men!

[ahem]

"make people want to visit" is a very polite way of saying "give a crap about this waymark and don't just submit it because you can" At least that's what it means when I say it. Technically, I have enough time to take pictures and toss up waymarks but they'd be crap. No history, no personalisation, no effort. Who cares? I'd rather leave that location for someone who has the time to really write a good waymark. I'm very lucky to live in the same area as marbill, who is a fantastic waymarker. I really wish people would care about their waymarks. Caring involves more than merely posting it, in my opinion.

Focusing on the positive side of this: I've seen some prolific waymarkers really turn out some awesome waymarks. Saopaulo1 has really impressed me (in the past year especially) with waymarks to some of the categories I'm an officer for. There's newcomers, too, who have been fantastic. Swizzle's finding some great locations and their Headstones of Centennarians waymarks were perfect... and there was someone else... I forget their username... but in my message in the third waymark I'd approved for them I practically begged them to keep on posting waymarks. Waymarks where you can tell the poster really wants you to know about the location make being an officer an awesome part of the hobby!

I'm glad you liked my centerians WMs. I have at least 7 more on paper, now I just have to find them in the field. One may be a typo though. It seems like they would have made a little more of a fuss over someone who is 119 years old. Another one is 110. I know you say you like them and you think they're great and all but if there's anything you'd like to see re-worded or something you'd like to see a little differently then let me know. I still feel like a square peg in a round hole. A chubby square peg at that. Swizzle

Redneck Parrotheads:

"make people want to visit" is a very polite way of saying "give a crap about this waymark and don't just submit it because you can" At least that's what it means when I say it. Technically, I have enough time to take pictures and toss up waymarks but they'd be crap. No history, no personalisation, no effort. Who cares? I'd rather leave that location for someone who has the time to really write a good waymark. I'm very lucky to live in the same area as marbill, who is a fantastic waymarker. I really wish people would care about their waymarks. Caring involves more than merely posting it, in my opinion.

As approvers, our role includes "coach". It's really easy to sit back and judge others, but unless we're prepared to spend the time to effectively communicate our needs, we haven't earned the right to judge. 

Maybe I'm lucky to only have a few categorys to approve, and none are subjective. I'm not required to judge others when I approve. I have a checklist, and I apply it for approve -vs- decline. On the rare occasions I strongly feel the waymark could be improved, I have coached outside of the approve or decline process.

Caring is one of the deepest emotions I can feel, short of love. I don't understand how it is possible for one human being to judge anothers level of caring. But then, not all people attach the same emotion to certain words. I know I can be emotional.

 

chapterhouseinc:

but virtually private is just as good at this point isnt it? most of them (n00bs) dont even know the forum exists, do they?

For the types of things I'm thinking about, I don't think we (fellow officers) could have an open and honest discussion if we had to worry that people could, if they knew where to look, follow our conversations.

chapterhouseinc:

what then when you want to discuss another officer--for conspiracy to overthrow issues.

Clandestine meetings in public places work best for those types of discussions. Just have to remember to frisk everybody to make sure they're not wearing a wire.