Groundspeak Portal

I'm interested in starting a group to log as many Masonic cornerstones as possible. There are tens of thousands out there, but I'm just not sure how to get started. The kid and I went out and collected the waymarks and photos for three today, but are now stymied.

I began a group called 'Masonic Cornerstones" but I can't seem to figure out how to upload data to it. I was a fairly intelligent fellow yesterday, but since waking up today I seem to have lost something... That or it may be the awkward manner in which this site is arranged. Either is possible.

If anyone could point me in the correct direction, it would be greatly appreciated. Please do not post the general FAQ because honestly, it reads and is indexed like stereo instructions.

Many thanks in advance!!

madfist_and_midge:

I'm interested in starting a group to log as many Masonic cornerstones as possible. There are tens of thousands out there, but I'm just not sure how to get started. The kid and I went out and collected the waymarks and photos for three today, but are now stymied. I began a group called 'Masonic Cornerstones" but I can't seem to figure out how to upload data to it. I was a fairly intelligent fellow yesterday, but since waking up today I seem to have lost something... That or it may be the awkward manner in which this site is arranged. Either is possible. If anyone could point me in the correct direction, it would be greatly appreciated. Please do not post the general FAQ because honestly, it reads and is indexed like stereo instructions. Many thanks in advance!!

These can be submitted in the Dated Buildings and Cornerstones  which takes all building cornerstones with several being Masonic cornerstones.  Thus Masonic cornerstones category would be considered a duplicate.

As a Freemason, I have collected countless pictures of cornerstones of our lodges, especially in my district. Indeed, they go to the already existing cornerstones category, but when I submit them I accentuate the fact they are Masonic. Traditionally, we always place our stone in the northeast corner of the lodge to commence the erection of our buildings, temples and other masonic edifices. Simply add this aspect to your cornerstone waymark to make it stand out and make it distinctive.

So, even though they are wholly different from other types of cornerstones I won't be allowed to start the group?

Now I'm confused... I may not be asking the right question. There's a group that waymarks Wendy's drive-thrus; why wouldn't that just be listed with all 'fast-food' places? Another for 'Hooters' that could easily be put with 'restaurants.'

Again, I'm new to this. It is entirely possible that I'm using incorrect terminology. I want to start a series of waymarks that are specific to Freemasonry. What would I call that? Would it be possible to make it a subcategory of 'dated buildings and cornerstones?' Would I need to petition the officers of that group?

Unlike the cornerstones that you so often see that just have a name and a date, Masonic stones indicate something deeper than just the carving on the outside. They provide a literal and emotional historic link to over 2 million people in the US alone.

And while I value the interest and importance in having a group that duplicates the work of the 'store finder' at Starbucks.com, I feel that by lumping these landmarks in with just plain rocks, we're missing a fantastic opportunity to include a segment of society that would otherwise have no interest in the hobby.

Am I going about this the wrong way?

Forming a group is just the first step.  You must then get 3 officers in your group.  Then you must write up a category description.  It then must pass your officer vote and then it must to peer review.  In peer review there are four main criteria one is whether it is a duplicate of another category.  In this case the duplication is very great. 

There really are no subcategories even though the verbiage would make you think so.  In your example of the hamburger places each is a separate category the Hamburger level you see is not really a category it is just grouping added by Groundspeak to keep all the hamburger places together.  Thus you can not add a subcategory under Dated Buildings and Cornerstones.

I am well aware of Masonic type cornerstones, with over 200 waymarks in the Dated Building and Cornerstones category probably about half are Masonic.  I would say you are being arrogant if you think the churches cornerstones are just rocks, they often have just as much of an emotional attachment.

If you want to share the locations of your cornerstones submit them in the Dated Buildings and Cornerstones category, it is about sharing the locations for other to see.  If you succeed in getting another cornerstone category sure I will crosspost a hundred or so but the information will be the same.

While I don't see the need to stoop to name calling, I should not have implied that one type of landmark was greater than another, simply that it would hold an interest in a greater portion of the populace. I stand corrected.

I do agree with you that much of the information (with regard to current postings) would be duplicate, however it would be properly (or more specifically) categorized. And, while the emotional attachment to another type of cornerstone might be great to those that happen to see it (or that attend that specific church, or that happen to have an office in that specific building) Masonic cornerstones hold that emotional connection with a very large (and growing) cross-section of the entire population, not just small, specific pockets. You are arguing my case for me by pointing out that with all the different types of cornerstones out there, a full half that are posted are Masonic. Saying '50 is greater than 5' is not arrogant, it's simply how the numbers work out. That was what I had intended to allude to, not that others are unimportant. I misspoke.

In regard to the cross-posting, the Masonic Historical Research Society has lots of information on the history of these buildings that would seemingly feed the interest of those that would seek out these waymarks. Would we be able to add historical notes to the posts?

If what you say about there not actually being a subcategory option is accurate then I'm more confused than ever. There are over 50 groups dedicated to waymarking different types of churches, bell towers, cathedrals, and the like. Wouldn't these items automatically be grouped together? I mean they're all churches, right? Additionally, it just seems odd that Jack-in-the-Box would warrant a group apart from Carl's Junior, but then there's no way to differentiate between different types of historical landmark.

I'm not asking if the system is broken or how to circumvent the issue, I'm just looking for a way to move forward with creating a group to highlight a very specific, relevant (as you pointed out) and interesting subject. Can you offer any assistance in that regard? If so, I'll be very grateful for your input.

Maybe you could write to the leader of the cornerstone category to ask if a special variable concerning masonic cornerstones can be added to the category.

There is nothing different from a Masonic cornerstone than from other cornerstones. What is interesting if you investigate non-Masonic buildings and see if the cornerstone is in the N.E> corner of the building, chances are a Mason, group of Masons or Lodge was involved in the development and construction of the building.

But, I digress. It is superfluous to start a new category for Masonic cornerstones. There is nothing special about them. By this logic, then courthouse, government buildings, banks, churches, etc. ought not to have a separate cornerstone category for them. Hope this helps!

Happy New Year Everyone!!!!

Eric

madfist_and_midge:

While I don't see the need to stoop to name calling, I should not have implied that one type of landmark was greater than another, simply that it would hold an interest in a greater portion of the populace. I stand corrected. 

Referring to other cornerstones "just plain rocks" led me to that conclusion

madfist_and_midge:

I do agree with you that much of the information (with regard to current postings) would be duplicate, however it would be properly (or more specifically) categorized. And, while the emotional attachment to another type of cornerstone might be great to those that happen to see it (or that attend that specific church, or that happen to have an office in that specific building) Masonic cornerstones hold that emotional connection with a very large (and growing) cross-section of the entire population, not just small, specific pockets. You are arguing my case for me by pointing out that with all the different types of cornerstones out there, a full half that are posted are Masonic. Saying '50 is greater than 5' is not arrogant, it's simply how the numbers work out. That was what I had intended to allude to, not that others are unimportant. I misspoke.

They are still cornerstones.  Do we need a category for Catholic Church cornerstones, after all many placed and dedicated by bishops with great ceremony?  I am not making your argument, it is well known that many cornerstones are placed by different Masonic organizations along with various churches, Odd Fellows and other organizatins.

madfist_and_midge:

In regard to the cross-posting, the Masonic Historical Research Society has lots of information on the history of these buildings that would seemingly feed the interest of those that would seek out these waymarks. Would we be able to add historical notes to the posts?

Historical information can be put into the description of waymarks.  If you are a premium member you can submit edits to other's waymarks if you have something to add about the history.

If you are referring to Masonic Lodge or Temple buildings these can be submitted to Masonic Temples  category also, and this would be a great place to put the history of the building.

madfist_and_midge:

If what you say about there not actually being a subcategory option is accurate then I'm more confused than ever. There are over 50 groups dedicated to waymarking different types of churches, bell towers, cathedrals, and the like. Wouldn't these items automatically be grouped together? I mean they're all churches, right? Additionally, it just seems odd that Jack-in-the-Box would warrant a group apart from Carl's Junior, but then there's no way to differentiate between different types of historical landmark.

The the various church categories are grouped under religious buildings which is under buildings.  No one started a plain Churches category however each of the different denomination type categories were started individually. 

madfist_and_midge:

I'm not asking if the system is broken or how to circumvent the issue, I'm just looking for a way to move forward with creating a group to highlight a very specific, relevant (as you pointed out) and interesting subject. Can you offer any assistance in that regard? If so, I'll be very grateful for your input.

My interest is historical buildings.  Many just happen to have cornerstones and I submit them to that category also.  I just don't see a need for two cornerstone categories.  If you had come in before the more general cornerstone category then you might have gained support.  However when a more general category exists then it is an uphill battle.  When we vote on categories one of the examples on duplicates is the existing there was a Lighthouse category and a new category for Blue Lighthouses is to viewed as a duplicate.  In your case Masonic Cornerstones become to Cornerstones that Blue Lighthouses are to Lighthouses.

A category for Masonic Cornerstones seems to be too much of a niche. As previously pointed out, the "Masonic" aspect of the cornerstone is not enough of a variation to warrant a new category. We've made this mistake in the past and I'm not eager to see it repeated.

If you would like a timeline using two existing categories, here goes.

First came "National Parks of the U.S." which seemed fine at the time to most people. Shortly thereafter came "National Parks of the World" and in retrospect it would likely be accurate to say that the USA centric one should have been made more global in the first place.

Another example, more suited to what you are proposing would be the "Ice Cream Parlor" category which came first, and then someone (me) thought that "Dairy Queen" should be a category. Personally I don't think of DQ as an ice cream parlor (man, I hate spelling it like that) but they accept them and that is fine... and my category didn't really need to be made. But things could have been arranged differently too, lots of options.

I doubt you can find anyone in these forums that wouldn't agree on at least some level that if we knew back then what we knew now that there would be some significant differences in the directory. But over the 4+ years we have learned from our past decisions and many would say that not repeating them is likely for the best.

BQ

Wouldn't a Masonic cornerstone be a part of a Masonic lodge, also?

Does anyone know if old Masonic buildings that aren't active lodges are accepeted in the Masonic Lodge category?

My observation has been that some of the categories that are currently abandoned started out as niche categories by people that aren't active waymarkers in other categories. When the original glut of new submissions slows down, and submissions trickle in, they log into waymarking less and less often and before you know it the category is abandoned.

When I vote, I vote based on my personal opinion of the subject, but in the back of my mind my experiences are impacting my opinion.

gt.us:

Wouldn't a Masonic cornerstone be a part of a Masonic lodge, also?

Does anyone know if old Masonic buildings that aren't active lodges are accepeted in the Masonic Lodge category?

Masonic cornerstones are often installed in other buildings besides Masonic lodges.

I believe I have a few "retired" lodges submitted in the category as long as there is some documentation or other identifying marks so it is clear it was a Masonic lodge.

I've also added cornerstones to both active and retired Masonic lodges, active and retired Odd Fellows Lodges, and active and retired churches.  Each have their own "significance" but have been gathered into the Dated Buildings and Cornerstones Group already.  I agree that a new Masonic Cornerstone category would be a duplication, however, any additional information on the conerstone of any building is always welcome and desired. 

The timeless discussion of broad vs narrow categories, and how to slice and dice them . . . .

Sometimes it is just a matter of which came first.  Once a broad category is created, it is more difficult to make a case for pulling out one segment of it to form a new category.  It also depends on the amount of overlap there would be between the two.  In this case EVERY cornerstone you propose a new category for is and can be included in an existing category.  If it is a Masonic temple, then it could go in two categories.

Whether right or wrong, this means that in the current climate such a category would surely never pass the peer review process.  That's just the way it is, I'm afraid.

The special interest that you wish to draw to these sites can certainly be done within the existing categories.  It would be very easy to search and view them.  So, there is nothing particularly to be gained in this instance by trying to split an existing category.  Waymark these sites that are special to you, with all the research and flourish that you desire, and they will be there for all to find and appreciate.

I think it would be an interesting category. Especially if there is something unique about Masonic cornerstones. Are they just laid on Masonic buildings? Or is there some way to tell if the cornerstone on another type of building is Masonic? Is there some particular symbol or style?

gershon_ben_franja:

I think it would be an interesting category. Especially if there is something unique about Masonic cornerstones. Are they just laid on Masonic buildings? Or is there some way to tell if the cornerstone on another type of building is Masonic? Is there some particular symbol or style?

If you browse through the Dated Buildings and Cornerstones category you will see many Masonic cornerstones.  They are on public buildings and schools along with Masonic buildings.  Some will have the Masonic Square and Compass symbol  and some won't.  Some with give the Grand Lodge and the Grand Master's name.  Also many Masonic cornerstones will have A.L. followed by numbers on them.

Even if the category doesn't get approved, I'm finding it interesting. For instance, the local library in our town has a Masonic Cornerstone:

http://www.coloradofreemasons.org/community/2009news2.html

To me, a waymarking category should also teach me something new. I could easily pass this one by as just another dated building.

Personally, I feel it is an interesting enough category and distinct enough from dated buildings to be its own category.

Thanks for bringing the subject to my attention.

Even tho  madfist_and_midge   hasn't defended his thoughts since December 31st the discussion has continued.
- A comment could have been posted as to his/her decision to end the conversation with "I see I don't get anywhere or I'll set it up anyway and lets see what happens"....
 - Typically, as someone mentioned  before, Categories are started with great enthusiasm and eventually abandoned by (mostly)  new Waymarkers that  find the process of maintaining them too tedious or boring and then disappear from Waymarking altogether..
- If you believe in an idea this is the place for a sounding board but don't expect to always get an  enthusiastic welcome for every proposal.
For every 10 Categories accepted there are probably 2 or 3 rejected ones, so yours isn't the first  or last or only one that might not pass Peer Review.
Why not join the other Category as an Officer and become the expert approver on Masonic Cornerstones.  

I've not been on the forums much ... and this thread's time seems to have passed, but here's my three ha'pence:

You could do a search on dated buildings and cornerstones, for the keyword masonic and bingo: you have a masonic cornerstones category.

http://www.waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=f95ee474-324f-408c-83d4-85151f84829b&wo=True&kw=masonic&st=2

If there is anything specific about masonic cornerstones that should be recorded (I don't know ... lodge serial number or something like that) we could consider adding a variable.

 

i thought i had more than that posted....
maybe cause they dont got 'masonic' in the title--but it would be in the 'full text variable'.....if only there was a good way to search that....